Big Changes Gonna Come (Part 1): The Night Tube

1. Well, they’ve started recruiting for staff for the “night tube” stations. ( https://tfl.taleo.net/careersection/external/jobdetail.ftl?job=014249 )

   I note that though it states “You will anticipate potentially dangerous or hazardous situations and minimise service delays by ensuring customers get on and off trains quickly and safely. Every night will bring a new challenge and no two will ever be the same.” it makes no comment that possibly a large majority will be worse the wear from alcohol (nor whether these Customer Service Assistants will have to clean up the puddles).

2. Just tweeted by BBC London:

   @BBCLondon949: All-night trains at weekends promised for London Overground, DLR and 4 more underground lines by @MayorofLondon and the Chancellor

3. More info http://bbc.in/1CRkPy0

   Sub-service lines by 2021
   Overground in 2017
   DLR by 2021

4. Full HM Treasury Press release:

   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/travel-boost-for-londoners-as-chancellor-and-mayor-confirm-expansion-of-night-time-services-new-wifi-for-the-tube

   Thanks to continued investment, night-time services will also be expanded to the Metropolitan, Circle, District, and Hammersmith and City lines once Transport for London’s ongoing modernisation programmes are completed. The Docklands Light Rail will also offer 24 hour services from no later than 2021.

   Currently 24 hour services will begin on the Northern, Victoria, Piccadilly, Jubilee and Central lines from this September.

   The new 24 hour Overground route will cover the East London Line with services from Dalston Junction or Highbury & Islington to New Cross Gate supporting the Shoreditch area, while the new DLR routes will integrate with the Tube services operating at the same time.

   Also covers CR2, Old Oak, River Crossings, Bakerloo investment and other tube upgrades

   More 6 point London plan details here:
   https://www.gov.uk/government/news/long-term-economic-plan-for-london-announced-by-chancellor-and-mayor-of-london

5. Any insight into why 24 service on the DLR is five years away. To the untrained eye (mine) this would appear the one of the easiest to go onto 24 hour ops. Is it linked to the next re-tender point for the DLR concession?

6. Re Island Dweller,

   It suggests that it may have to wait till ownership of the Lewisham Branch changes to TfL before they can implement it? (Or at least a contract renegotiation point?) It might just be too expensive to justify attempting before then.

7. @NGH – that’s the likely explanation, since the DLR infrastructure maintenance is part of the concession and the concessionnaire will have factured the night time availability of the assets into his price.

8. Alison W, this is a big worry for me. Last night I watched one extremely drunk girl attempt to throw herself through the ticket barriers repeatedly at Victoria, and either get trapped, fall back on to the ground, or bounce off them with a fairly nasty bang. Meanwhile a drunken and possibly stoned male who had nothing to do with her abused the barrier staff for not just allowing her to pass whilst thinking that swearing his head off was the way to talk himself through them also. Both could apparently afford large quantities of alcohol but not tickets to Clapham Junction. Network Rail security were called and just let the girl through. She crazily ran to the waiting train, nearly falling off the platform in the process, and was thus allowed to unleash god knows what on other passengers as well as the guard – if indeed there was one – as drivers are frequently on their own with a train full of drunk people these days. I have grave forebodings of all night trains in Britain until it learns to grow up where drink is concerned. Front line staff are not properly protected or backed up, despite all the posters to the contrary.

9. GTR – just about every other developed nation manages it. But in their cases, would they just let people swearing and shouting get away with it? Would they let someone through who was completely drunk no questions asked? Probably not. Lets try punishing those people not stopping a service that will provide a huge benefit to so many people.

   Let’s not fall into the trap of thinking only the UK has drinking problems though. I’ve seen it often across Europe and the States. but when morons do try it on the police and security turn up and take no rubbish. This does keep most in line.

10. Obviously I was not there, but even if I was, I would hesitate to say that the security person’s action (letting the drunk through) was definitely wrong. Part of the skill of security consists of choosing the right situation for confrontation, and avoiding it otherwise.

    Having said that, I agree that handling drunk people is a big challenge for all staff involved with the night tube, as it has long been for bus drivers. (Though it is also possible to be drunk in daylight hours).

11. https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/new-sub-surface-timetable-good-gets/#comment-241724

    Please see above comment which contains announcement on extended night services on tubes, Overground, DLR and sub surface lines .

    Of course with an election both for Government and in 2016 a new Mayor only time will tell if or when these plans get acrooned.

12. GTR driver is right that staff are not properly backed up. The back up staff themselves are often overstretched. Hewett junior,who spent some time as station manager at Guildford recalls the Saturday nights when the local nick rang up to say “send no more drunks, we’re full”. There was little choice but to put them on the last train back to waterloo where there was more security….

13. I suppose the fact police in other countries are armed might make a difference …!

    It’s noticable that these plans make no announcement of further expansion of Overground to include more lines in London.

    While the time it will take for night services on the DLR suggest this was not planned when recent contract was awarded , showing a lack of forward thinking by BORIS as Mayor . A service between Tower Gateway and Island Gardens thus serving 24 hour Canary Wharf with interchange there with Jubilee Line could be a starter?

    While service on Overground only includes Eaśt London Line where TFL controls the infrastructure and not parts controlled by Network Rail which of course uses North and West London lines where freight trains take precedence at night !

14. Quick aside on armed officers. Tends actually not to help a great deal. For VERY GOOD reasons the armed police in the UK have very strict rules on when they can dischange their weapons – essentially when they are being aimed at themselves. I know the rules are sometimes broken, but waving a gun at a drunk at Victoria is not going to happen, nor should it.

    The best way to make an angry man compliant is to wave a large slavering dog at him. Whether that works for the drunk is a different question.

15. @ Island dweller and others – it is the expiry of the Lewisham PFI contract in 2021 that is the constraint. As Mr H rightly surmises there will be a load of assumptions about engineering access and running all night trains would result in a great big claim or else the risk of some stupidly inflated “price” to relinquish access. There may also be issues whereby CGL Rail have to undertake works prior to 2021 to ensure they return the Lewisham assets in a prescribed condition / residual life state. Again it would be daft to try to open up engineering access issues if it could also result in the PFI contractor being able to quibble about their ability to achieve condition / life targets at handback.

    The recently let DLR concession is of shorter duration than normal so that it ends at the same time as the Lewisham PFI deal thereby allowing TfL to award the next concession on a fully unified basis and I expect all night weekend running will be part of the future spec.

16. All night trains a problem? During the day or night, London’s railway stations increasingly have not staff – leaving passengers to fend for themselves. Obviously, late-at-night it can get worse, but already de-staffing is taking its toll, as people are fully aware that its possible to do anything you want at railway stations (during the day I see people riding bikes on platforms, smoking, drinking too much, hassling passengers etc) and of course its possible to travel all over London without paying as their are less and less ticket barriers and almost no chance of being stopped. I wonder how much crime is being committed now on trains compared with say 10 or 20 years ago? and how much fare evasion there is? How much is this costing Londoners- not just in all the hassle we face on our daily journeys on the new “austerity” rail network, but the false economy of getting rid of staff, ticket offices, ticket barriers etc? Oh, and LOROL services can be no better – I notice at Clapham High Street a new lovely clean set of platforms in new orange paint – but no ticket office, no ticket barriers etc – but a man in box on the up platform, who does provide some reassurance for passengers.

17. @Anonymous 01:12: During the day or night, London’s railway stations increasingly have not staff – leaving passengers to fend for themselves

    Surely more London stations are staffed from first to last train than was the case 10 to 20 years ago, thanks to TfL’s takeover of a big chunk of them (and LUL have also taken over various ex-National Rail stations, on the Richmond branch for example).

    their are less and less ticket barriers

    Really?

18. Signalling, UPS and other crucial equipment rooms need to be air conditioned and at platform/track level most of the condensers are adjacent to the track and can only be cleaned/serviced when the trains are not running.

    [UPS in this context is Uninterruptible Power Supply. LBM]

19. @ Anon – I’d say there were more staff on National Rail stations these days than in the past. Several franchise awards have included more staffing and for longer hours because there has been a general acceptance that TfL’s approach with the Overground has worked in terms of attracting people to use the system. There are obviously some exceptions where things are just like BR in the 1980s but I don’t detect that things are getting worse. It is also clear that more ticket gates have been installed – the question is whether they’re kept in service throughout the service day and some TOCs do not do that. As for Clapham High St or Wandsworth Road then at least some money has been spent to brighten them up and provide a staffed location. Several stations on the Barking – Gospel Oak line only have a portacabin but at least someone is there on the station watching what is going on and being visible to passengers. I’m not saying things are perfect but I don’t think things are as bad as you suggest. To be fair there are no cheap solutions to providing ticket offices at places like Clapham High St. It might happen at some point but the general trend in ticketing is to move transactions away from ticket offices. TfL also need to see that there is sufficient demand for such a facility – it’s not always feasible to do that immediately. We can now see that demand has increased sufficiently at some North London Line stations to justify significant investment in new, more spacious facilities to handle the crowds safely.

20. @Ian J
    “Surely more London stations are staffed from first to last train than was the case 10 to 20 years ago, thanks to TfL’s takeover of a big chunk of them”

    A mere handful. South of the river most stations are still in the hands of the SWT/SET/Southern troika and even quite busy ones are unstaffed for at least part of the operating day.

21. timbeau,

    In the case of Southern I think that is rather unfair and inaccurate. Even the quiet Tattenham Corner line stations in south London seem always to be staffed. You can buy at ticket at all hours of the day from them which is actually more than you can say for some of their busy stations such as Purley.

    Which stations had you in mind? I cannot think of a single one.

22. @WW, PoP: I can’t relate to Anon’s coments either. Even SET seem to have started checking tickets much later into the day. I recently nearly crashed into the barriers at Orpington at 21:30 as they were still in operation. I simply wasn’t expecting it! And this was the back exit from Platform 5…

23. My point was that TfL stations are still very much in the minority south of the river. Staffing levels may vary between operators, but certainly in my area of SW London station staff are rarely seen after about 9pm – and much earlier at the quieter stations. Theexistence of “night entrances” is a clue

24. timbeau,

    I don’t doubt what you say on South West trains is true but it is very dangerous to generalise and apply it to other companies. As if to make the point, as far as I am aware, we don’t have night entrances on Southern in South London. Indeed I have never heard of the term.

25. I still just about old enough to remember tubes with guards but they were was no protection from grafitti or later etching. In the 80s we had Guardian Angels in their red berets patrolling because crime had reportedly got so bad. There was a rape (or perhaps it was a murder) on an enclosed carriage on the SE line. It was impossible to move carriages on the tube without risking fall between the couplings and on many inner/suburban services.

    We now have far more CCTV coverage, far less grafitti and etching, and increasingly walk-through or interconnecting carriages.

    Crime still happens of course. We’re probably more aware of sexual assaults, partly because tragically it wasn’t taken as seriously some years back and partly because CCTV makes it easier to identify suspects and make public appeals for information.

    Assaults still happen, but they still happen on buses too where the driver and other passengers are closer to the problem.

    Smartphones might put you at risk of being mugged but they also have the benefit of being able to contact friends, family and the police if people feel uneasy.

    I’m sure the media will take a closer interest on Night Tube crime than other crimes which might occur on a high street in broad daylight. There might be calls for safe waiting zones at platforms, security guards riding in marked carriages and even women only carriages.

    But ultimately other cities manage. New York’s subway may have the bonus of dual tracking to allow for continuous 24 hour running but its platforms are dark, gloomy and far more foreboding with pillars dotted along the whole platform. Last time I was there a couple of years ago dot matrix systems were in their infancy. I’m not sure how the CCTV coverage compared.

    Ticket barriers are missing from many of Berlin’s u-Bahn stations but it still provides a 24 hour service at weekends.

26. Night entrance
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_KNG/objectvalues/2274-0100019.html
    This entrance is open only when the booking hall is closed and the station is unstaffed.

    @anon 5. It was a murder on non-corridor compartment stock on an Orpington – Victoria service. The few remaining non-corridor cars were hastily reformed into as few units as possible and used on in the peak hours.

    “It was impossible to move carriages …..without risking fall between the couplings on many inner/suburban services.” This was not the case for any main line units – they either had proper inter-car gangways or no end doors at all – there was a full-width six-seater bench across the end of the car. The Tube’s end-car doors were necessary for emergency escape in confined tunnels, where egress through the side doors is not possible.

27. @timbeau, anon5

    The murder in the train from Orpington was the last case of a murder in closed apartments and the one that finally resulted in action to get rid of them.

    A particularly tragic case was that of au pair Heidi Minck several years earlier. When the train stopped at New Cross two schoolboys in an adjacent compartment, who realised what had happened, attempted to raise the alarm but despite their story and agitation the ticket collector was more concerned with making sure everyone had paid the correct fare – obviously more important. The killer was never caught.

    Anyone who did our Christmas Quiz ought to be aware of the first case of this type of murder.

28. Doing Access for All on the cheap provides a handy way for fare Dodgers to enter and leave stations where access is simply by a gate left open and passengers are expected to touch in and out at oyster readerś provided.

    At West Croydon TFL show how it should be done with a new entrance that has ticket gates and it normally staffed. This is how it should be done but many private companies won’t spend the money on making these useful entrances more secure let alone staffing them.

    Perhaps consideration of transferring all non Network Rail stations to TFL control should be considered even if train services are still run by TOCs ?

29. Timbeau/Pop: I thought it was a murder but I couldn’t be sure. I remember traveling in the compartment stock as a child and later the units being used only in the peak with the addition of a red stripe to denote the compartments.

    As for the gangways. For the second time in as many days I’ve succumbed to mobile editing issues (vouch for me Pop!). I meant all tube trains back then had the (emergency) doors, escape through which could mean risking falling on to the couplings. And, as Timbeau said, the then modern sliding door inner/suburban stock had corridor connections as means of escape but most of the inner/suburban slam door stock had either no corridor connections or compartments.

    I must learn to read my comments after editing, posting and uploading on tube wifi!

30. Melvyn,

    That may be the case but I don’t know of any examples like that. Were you thinking of any specific stations? If so I suspect it is a short term measure – Access for All being considered more important that revenue protection.

    I had assumed that the measures introduced at West Croydon were the norm and not the exception. Even Southeastern manages to get Access for All at platform 1 at Woolwich Arsenal right with passengers having to buzz to have the gate unlocked so that they can use the touch in an out facility and then enter or exit the station. Of course this is not ideal and in a perfect world you should not have separate facilities for the disabled but have facilities that everyone can use – hence Access for All.

31. Re POP,

    Southern have relaxed the buzzing out at separate non stepped entrance at certain stations after a few years of requiring it obviously they can still meet the ticket less travel threshold due to sufficient other stations being fully gated.

    In one case this might also be due to the station building only permitting very few gates which are probably substancially busier than pre – gating usage figures might suggest (also 2 trains arrive at the same time leading to big queues at the gates). Also saves a few people 4x 150m in walking everyday.

32. PoP
    Unfortunately, there was another case like that.
    I can’t now remember if it was Ilford or Romford, but a man was stabbed, just inside the ticket-barriers ( & took several minutes to die)
    The barrier staff refused to open the gates to allow people to render assistance, even though the victim was dying in front of them.
    IIRC, when the case finally came to trial ( Unlike the tragic incident of Heidi Minck, the perpetrators were soon caught) the judge had some very interesting words for the “zeal” shall we say of those railway staff!

33. @PoP/Greg
    Googling that case I find what must surely the same case (although the victim’s surname is spelt differently) is one of several confessed to by one Patrick Mackay after his arrest two years later. Nevertheless, he might have been apprehended sooner if the ticket collector had been more savvy.

34. @timbeau,

    I suppose I was technically correct then when I say the killer was never caught! Could you give the link?. I have tried to find this for years but have had to rely on my memory. It stands out in my mind as it was a line I used to use and I think I would have been around the same age as the boys involved.

    Greg,

    And, frustratingly, it is well established that any person can enter any property in order to save life in immediate danger so on that particular occasion the would-be lifesavers would have been entirely justified in forcing entry or even, possibly, using minimum force to prevent the individual stopping them.

35. @pop
    Sorry for this rather unsavoury thread drift, but to answer the question I googled New Cross murder and Heidi. He was convicted of other murders of which there was more evidence, so it was never established in a court of law whether the true culprit was identified.
    The Class 415/5s were formed in 1988 after the Victoria incident, but were put at the head of the queue for withdrawal as soon as alternative stock was available and had all gone by 1991, along with the BR-type 2EPBs which also had a few non-corridor compartments.

    (for the avoidance of confusion: by “corridor” I mean a side corridor along the length of one car, giving access to and between individual compartments in that car. By “gangway” I mean access between between cars). A vehicle can have one or the other, or both, or neither.)

36. PoP & others
    Now I’m going round in circles … can anyone find details of the Ilford/Romford murder?
    – I had a quick look & got nowhere & now it’s nagging at me ….

    [Note to railway murder ‘enthusiasts’, I think we are going off track into the weeds at this point. Best to correspond privately on this. LBM]

37. Greg,

    Sorry no. I remember it happened shortly after privatisation as there was concern about this being an effect of privatisation. Mind you I think there was also a case at Heathrow where the LU controller was pressurising the driver to stop delaying the service despite the driver reporting a serious stabbing having taken place on the platform.

    [Note to railway murder ‘enthusiasts’, I think we are going off track into the weeds at this point. Best to correspond privately on this. LBM]

38. LBM – probably my fault but just wanted to show that crime has always existed on the railway. Some types of crime seems to go in cycles. Pickpocketing on the tube made the headlines a few years ago after many years of relative obscurity.

    In these days of an elected mayor you can bet that if certain crimes suddenly go up on the tube as a result of the Night Tube, he or she will be throwing their weight and taxpayers money behind stopping it. Crime on the tube is too big a political issue to ignore because TfL is the one area Joe public knows is the mayor’s domain.

39. @Anon5

    Your point of railway crime was valid and worth discussing, as was the follow-on discussion safety implications of slam-door stock, unstaffed stations etc. But the names of individual perpetrators is off topic.

40. LBM
    Matters of public record are matters of public record.
    You should not be attempting to suppress them.
    
    [Greg, These are being suppressed from this specific site because LBM considers them off-topic. If I can accept his judgement I would hope you could too. LBM has been very good at directing people to more appropriate websites to learn about stuff or add their comment so any suggestion that he is trying to completely suppress anything would be ridiculous. He is just making the point that it not what we are about and not appropriate here. I would suggest this is more appropriate in the pub rather than here. Now if it were an article specifically about crime and public transport in London with past events to illustrate specific points then that might be different … PoP]

41. May or may not be relevant:
    “ES” is reporting difficulties with pay negotiations for staff working overnight on the tube.
    My educated guess is that this is a serious-but-standard stand-off in initial negotiations, but, if agreement cannot be reached, then there simply won’t be staff to operate the “all-night” tube, will there?

42. And now we get the Night Bus proposed changes to support the Night Tube network. TfL have started a consultation today (19 May 2015).

    https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/night-bus-review/consult_view

    Nothing too horrifying by way of frequency reductions to existing night routes and with some useful bits of extra capacity, 2 nightly new night buses plus several extra weekend only routes to link into the tube.

43. I notice that the recent proposal to replace the N13 with 24 hour operation of the 82 is not included despite it making sense in its own right given that Victoria Station is a more imported night time destination than Aldwych . Daytime 13,would remain unchanged.

    It seems talk of introducing the night tube leading to fewer night bus routes has in fact been reversed into more routes especially in outer London to transfer passengers from stations to their homes.

    I notice that routes N5 and N20 ( which have no relation to daytime counterparts ) will remain despite introduction of Northern Line west end branch night services . I would have thought extension of route 134 night service might have replaced at least one of these routes ?

    Wonder how long it will be before demands for 7 day operation of some of these weekend only services will take and if they are shown on bus stops like 7 day routes how long before people complain about waiting for a bus on say a Wednesday night ?

44. Addendum – On checking maps on consultation the 82 was shown as if it were a night service !

    Suggests this plan was drawn up before election and fuss over Finchley Road changes .

45. @ Melvyn – there was never an official line from TfL that said existing night bus routes would be withdrawn because of the Night Tube starting. In fact quite the opposite was said – existing routes remain but weekend frequencies would be reduced but to no lower frequency than on weeknights. All in all it doesn’t look too bad although I think a few ideas are a bit “off kilter”. I also think there’s a lack of ambition in terms of weekend extra services when you make a comparison with what TfL runs on New Years Eve night.

    I agree with you that pressure may build for nightly services on some of the new routes but it will take time for demand to establish itself sufficiently at weekends to give TfL the data it needs to be convinced about a nightly service. The same will be true about existing night routes and what demand remains for them and whether any cuts are too much or could, in fact, be greater because so much demand has gone to the Tube. Caroline Pidgeon has asked for any reductions to be paused until demand levels become clear after a few months. That has some merit in terms of being able to take a reasoned decision based on evidence rather than assumptions and models.

46. Melvyn
    It seems talk of introducing the night tube leading to fewer night bus routes has in fact been reversed into more routes especially in outer London to transfer passengers from stations to their homes.
    AFAIK, this was always the plan … @ the lecture I attended in early April, it was stated that there would almost certainly be new (or revised) night-bus routes to serve places like Harrow, from, say, Northern line “all-night” stations.
    It is also expected that there will probably have to be quite a lot of tweaking of these routes over the first year or two.
    IIRC, the initial plan is to set it up & watch how it operates for the first 3-4 months (i.e. until January 2016) before any significan further changes are made to the bus operations.

47. https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/night-bus-review/user_uploads/north_london_night_tube_map.pdf-1

    Link above to North London Map which shows 82 instead of N13

    For completeness of my earlier post .

48. The proposed frequency reductions are not as great as I had expected and no route withdrawals means that any over zealous frequency reductions can be adjusted relatively quickly.

    The range of new night bus routes is probably greater than I had expected. It will be interesting to see how they fare, especially as most will only operate Friday/Saturday nights and will only really feed the tube unless they also happen to serve an evening entertainment centre. They will not be able to build up an all week loyalty from shift workers etc.

    Glad that some obvious gaps in the night bus network will now be filled:
    132 and 486 – will be useful for visitors to the 02 Centre.
    222 – serving West Drayton and Brunel University for the first time as well as being useful for Heathrow Aiport staff
    H37 – Richmond-Hounslow route has long been needed as Richmond is a busy night time centre at weekends and late evening buses are busy.
    W3 and W7 – Muswell Hill, Crouch End and Stroud Green finally get a night bus service to Finsbury Park which has not previously been provided despite the high daytime frequencies and passenger volumes on these routes.

49. Rail and Tube panel presentation on the Night Tube changes and the work necessary to make them happen.

    https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rup-20150716-part-1-item07-night-tube.pdf

50. I have trashed a number of comments relating to the tube strike. Whilst not entirely unreasonable I can see them developing into speculation and generally unhelpful comments.

    If we feel comments are either getting into the politics of a tube strike or attempting to provide an hour by hour update they will be deleted.

    [To emphasise, we Mods will continue to remove political comments and hourly updates regarding the tube strike. LBM]

51. PoP – I semi-understand your reasoning, but had been trying to stay apolitical. This week’s “events” are raising the issue of whether going ahead with the Night Tube is a reasonable and practicable thing for LU/TfL. I see that as absolutely on point for this site.

52. Alison,

    I do understand and your comment was one reason why I at least said it wasn’t entirely unreasonable. The issue we have is sometimes we get comments that we just know are going to lead somewhere we don’t want to go – however reasonable the initial comment itself is. I can assure you new moderators very quickly develop this sense so if I hadn’t taken this action I am sure someone else would have. Experience tells us to get in quick before it gets out of hand.

    At another time on another day we might well have been happy to read a similar comment. I would imagine we would do another Night Tube article in the not too distant future. Maybe then, in a less charged atmosphere, we would be happy to discuss just how much TfL wanted the Night Tube and how much was external pressure.

53. OK, to bypass the politics, I’m wondering whether there is a different ‘elephant in the room’. That of “where’s the money coming from?”

    Despite (or in spite of?) TfL growing its patch with the Eastward and Westward extensions of TfL rail, and the time-based extension of services to at least a couple of overnights (even if, initially, not on all lines and possibly resulting in a reduction of Sunday services) none of these elements seriously increase the income of TfL because the majority of users will be on seasons or capped Oysters, etc. Greatly increased usage does not equal substantially increased income; in fact the reverse!

    Up until now the Oyster limitation of how many zones the card could handle meant that expansion outwith the current geographical area was held back, but the changes presently in progress will remove that blockage.

    More importantly, I’d suggest, the entire zonal map could be redrawn in order to make some journeys / routes cost more and – because of the effectively captive market – generate an increased income to cover further expansion of services.

    ‘Zone 1’ already penalises those on the North-South axis of London, so it isn’t as though the present system is coherently fair. A redrawing of the zones could also permit more effective pricing of the ‘new areas’ like OOC, Stratford, and Croydon.

    As Peter Hendy has noted, TfL will soon be operating without subsidy. Increasing the number of zones will be ‘more marketable’ than increasing the fares, I’d suggest.

54. OOps

    WW
    That paper is a formal version of the lecture I heard in April – very informative, thanks

55. AlisonW,

    The belief is that any extra fares from Night Tube will eventually at least cover the marginal cost of running the Night Tube. It is a manner of debate when that is expected to happen. To some extent this is still all of a bit of an unknown as we enter new territory. Costs can be fairly accurately determined but revenue cannot.

    One could turn the thing around and, if there wasn’t a Night Tube, state that it was ridiculous that LU had an asset that was sitting around not earning revenue on Friday and Saturday nights when it could be.

    As to operating without a subsidy, I think Sir Peter was mainly thinking of buses when he made that statement. I think that London Underground has operated without a operating subsidy for many years of its life. It is the capital investment that costs. You can always argue as to whether things like modern trains are capital investment or replacement costs. Either way it is irrelevant to the argument. The marginal cost of operating the Night Tube is all that is relevant.

    I really don’t see the need to redraw the zonal map on the basis of an all night tube service on five lines for two nights a week.

    If predictions of benefits to the economy turn out to be true then regardless of any relatively small loss, a future mayor will make sure that money is found if necessary. This would be no different from now where at various times of day, certain parts of the tube probably operate at a loss (or saving could be made by reducing the service) but it is recognised that the overall benefit of running a service then outweighs any small loss. It is true such losses will need to be factored in when considering overall fare levels.

    Hopefully, we will cover Night Tube before it starts. It is just with negotiations stalled we do not want it to be seen as an invitation to stray into territory into which we do not wish to go.

56. @ Alison W – I can’t see the fare zones being redrafted. Firstly yesterday Isabel Dedring was clear that it would only be an exceptional event where there was massive external justification. She cited the upcoming move of the Stratford stations to Z23 only being justitified because of the shift of economic activity eastwards plus planned development in and around Stratford. I also think there’s a political aspect too (boosting the value of developments / house prices) but she’s too clever to say that in front of a load of other politicians!

    Redrawing the zones would unleash a torrent of demands for every station to be in a zone that was cheaper than its current one. That’s simply impossible if you’re going to retain graduated fares and a premium for travel in the congested central area and to offer cheaper fares by slower but usually less crowded outer area routes. There are already several campaigns in place to move zonal boundaries plus “everyone” [1] wants to be on Oyster PAYG because they believe this lowers fares. Of course it doesn’t really do that as we have seen with the separate West Anglia / Shenfield line PAYG tariff plus the refusal to move Shenfield to TfL control because it’s a pricing point for Greater Anglia. Other stations outside the Zones but on PAYG haven’t seen fare reductions. Mike Brown said the same issue applies in respect of Sevenoaks if TfL were to get South Eastern’s inner area services. Neither he nor Ms Dedring would offer any hope of cheaper fares for Sevenoaks commuters. Further Ms Dedring said TfL would be happy to sign up to the Kent CC “red line” which said TfL taking on rail services would never ever mean fare changes in London being “paid for” by increased fares in Kent. Of course the final decision is with the DfT and the implication is that fares wouldn’t fall or would fall by only a small amount if Gtr London to avoid fare anomalies emerging at or across the zonal boundary.

    The other major issue is that rejigging zones would change the financial basis of several TOC franchises and that means TfL having to compensate them for any losses. It’s also means months of arguing over numbers. IIRC the Stratford rezoning means a payment to Greater Anglia of £6m per annum and the recent adoption of the amended TfL PAYG tariff between Tottenham Hale and Enfield Lock for Greater Anglia services is costing £1m a year. Imagine the nightmares with London Midland, TSGN, South Eastern, FGW, Chiltern at al if their fares had to be changed and compensation amounts being granted. Even if TfL were to swoop down and grab all the suburban services in Greater London and take on all the revenue risk the issue still exists because of residual fast and semi fast services that stop in Greater London and which provide important services for people further out near the zonal boundary.

    There is a final but more minor issue which is the point at which having zones outside Greater London for rail becomes a confusion in respect of bus services in places like Epsom or Dartford or Cheshunt. I’m not going to overegg this one because we’ve had out county zones at Amersham etc for decades and people have survived. We also have have some TfL buses in Dartford and Epsom but there is a small risk that people start demanding Oyster works on non TfL bus services and life gets very complicated then.

    [1] not really everyone but sometimes it feels like it!

57. @WW
    “the point at which having zones outside Greater London for rail becomes a confusion in respect of bus services in places like Epsom or Dartford or Cheshunt.”
    Why is that an issue? Oyster is accepted on all TfL buses, including many places where the trains don’t – see Slough, Dorking, Stratford Internatoinal (HS1), Heathrow (HEx).

    “demands for every station to be in a zone that was cheaper than its current one. ”
    One man’s meat is another man’s poison of course. There is a campaign to move my local station from Zone 6 to Zone 5. This will, of course, reduce the price of journeys to Zone 1. But it will increase the price of journeys from elsewhere in Zone 6 (the station is a popular shopping destination and also has a number of schools and colleges).

58. A minor puzzle on the zone discussion. When Stratford moves to z2/3, it’ll be possible to go from Canary Wharf either (A) by DLR, z2 all the way, (B) Crossrail, z2 all the way or (C) by Jubilee going from z2 into z3 and back to z2. Will the Jubilee route be charged at a different rate, or unavailable to a season ticket holder who only has z2. Wonder if tfl have even considered that one.

59. “Will the Jubilee route be charged at a different rate, or unavailable to a season ticket holder who only has z2. ”
    Assuming West Ham and Canning Town remain in Zone 3, the answers are No (probably) and Yes.

    A point to point ticket is charged the same regardless of the route taken, unless you touch in and out en route at an “OSI” or touch through at a pink reader in which case it will calculate accordingly. (On Oyster, of course, once you are touched in you are valid anywhere until you touch out again.
    But a season ticket is only valid in the zones specified, so if inspector finds you with a Zone 2 travelcard at West Ham you have a problem, even if you are travelling from Stratford to Canary Wharf. Likewise if you tried to use a Z2 travelcard to go from West Hampstead to Stratford on the Jubilee Line instead of the Overground)

    It is rare for a direct journey to be possible that takes you from a low number zone to a high number zone and back in again. Waterloo to Strawberry Hill is an example – StH is in Zone 5 but half the trains to Waterloo go via Teddington, which is in Zone 6. Oyster will charge you a Z1-5 fare but there are two prices of season – one via Richmond and the other by any route.

60. @ Timbeau – I tried not to overdo my point about buses outside Gtr London. I can just see a situation where if Oyster is extended to some railway lines / stations that pressure will build for “fully seamless” travel. Reading is a good example where the bus network is good and well used and where Crossrail will bring Oyster. I can see arguments in places like Staines, Epsom etc. As you know TfL run a flat fare but very few other operators do and even if you allowed single fares to be paid for from the Oyster balance you then run into capping issues. In no way is this a major issue but I can just see pressure building over time which may make things hopelessly complicated for the Oyster technology and for customer comprehension *if* there was a political push for wider use. We can already see this happening in the North of England but, of course, the regulatory and commercial environment is different there.

    @ Island Dweller – as there is no difference between a Z2 and Z23 PAYG fare on the TfL tariff and you cannot buy single zone Travelcards I doubt there is any substantive issue. TfL already tolerates some bizarre inconsistencies in its fare setting where the default fare is for a non Z1 price and yet it is actually impossible to detect or determine if someone actually went through Zone 1 because there is no need to pass through a ticket gate in Zone 1 to make the journey. The classic is Highbury & Islington to Richmond – priced as Z24 but nothing to stop you at all from going via Z1 and changing inside the paid area on the tube. You only get caught by the system if you opt to use SWT and change at Waterloo / Victoria (chng at C Junc) or Vauxhall. In the case of Stratford I imagine TfL are very relaxed about the zone change in Jan 2016.

61. @IslandDweller and timbeau:

    My understanding would be: this depends on which Oyster reader the card was touched at.

    If I touched in and out at Canary Wharf DLR and Stratford or Canary Wharf Crossrail and Stratford there would be no way I would have been able to use the Jubilee Line without touching in/out somewere else on the system* The system would therefore have charged me for a Zone 2 – Zone 2 trip. If I touched in and out at Canary Wharf Jubilee Line and Stratford I would have had to have travelled via Zone 3 and would have been charged accordingly.

    *(unless I travelled via Bond Street on Crossrail or Canning Town on DLR, but who in their right mind would do that?)

62. @WW
    ” I can just see a situation where if Oyster is extended to some railway lines / stations that pressure will build for “fully seamless” travel. ”

    Seen from a metropolitan perspective that might seem a reasonable expectation, but sadly, in the deregulated wilderness outside London, thirty years after the Transport Act there is no longer any expectation of interavailability even between different buses, let alone different transport modes. Indeed, co-operation is frowned upon as an anticompetitive cartel.

63. @Straphan
    Good point – I forgot that canary Wharf JLE and canary Wharf DLR have separate barrier lines.

    “*(unless I travelled via “……..) You can do Stratford – Canary Wharf JLE entirely within Z2 without touching in or out: via Mile End, Whitechapel and Canada Water! Once Crossrail is in place, you can omit the Mile End change

64. @ Timbeau – On the season ticket issue then you’re only in trouble with a Z2 Travelcard at West Ham if it is a paper season. You aren’t in trouble with Oyster provided you have touched in – the fact you may be out of zone is irrelevant provided your PAYG balance is zero or greater. If an extension fare is due then it should be deducted on exit from the PAYG balance. If necessary your card balance will go negative and travel is prevented until the balance is restored to at least zero pence.

    I await George Osborne announcing the “Home Counties Powerhouse” with promises of bus regulation powers and Oyster Style ticketing. 🙂 Your basic point on buses is, of course, quite correct but there are options available to local authorities if they wanted to use them. The likelihood of them doing so is low but not impossible.

65. @timbeau: “(On Oyster, of course, once you are touched in you are valid anywhere until you touch out again.”

    Not unconditionally. Last time I visited London I had a quite expensive trip (for railfanning purposes) from White City to Marylebone via South Ruislip. Since there was no gateline separating the tube and NR platforms at S. Ruislip and it is impossible to change from LU to a train bound for Marylebone NR closer than zone 5 anyway, I thought it would be okay and the Oyster system would figure out how much that journey ought to cost, but instead it charged me for two “incomplete journeys” that didn’t even count towards the daily cap.

    (Afterwards I’ve tried in vain to find any general description of when one is supposed to touch out and in again when changing between trains that share a gateline).

66. @ Henning M – you should have exited at South Ruislip to end your outward trip and re-entered for the second journey if using Oyster. You were caught out by the maximum journey time rule by going a long way out and trying to “kid” the system you were just going 2 zones. The system then splits an overtime journey into two. If you want to be “stress free” about validating then buy an (expensive) One Day Travelcard paper ticket. No worries about wandering around and taking too long with a paper ticket provided you stick within the zones.

67. @Henning
    You may have been timed out for a White City-Marylebone journey (what is the time limit for Z1/2 only)?
    I have had the opposite experience – in order to ride the then-new connection from Tottenham Hale into the high level platforms at Stratford I went Moorgate – High & I – Tottenham Hale – Stratford – St Pauls one lunchtime and, despite having to use the OSI at Totty Hale, I only got charged a Z1 fare!

68. The future is more likely to be about ITSO compliant tickets becoming available to use within London than Oyster which uses outdated technology moving outwards .

    An example is the Southern Key card see –

    Can I load Oyster pay as you go onto my key?
    No, Oyster pay as you go is not available on the key.

    Will the key work in London?
    Yes, as long as you load a Travelcard on to your key outside London you’ll be able to travel to any London station within the Travelcard zone. You’ll be able to use it on London Underground, buses, trams, trains, and Docklands Light Railway (DLR).

    I have added above a couple of points relievent to use in London as as you can that while PAYG is not yet available Travelcard is so for many users Key Cards issued by Southern and planned to expand to TSGN following merger of franchise with maybe London Midland and even South Eastern both also under the Govia banner possible.

    In fact the time may come when Oyster is replaced by a ITSO compliant version .

    So at present it is possible for someone to use their Key card on a Brighton bus then train to London and with a Travelcard loaded have the freedom of London transport ( well except cable cars!) .

69. PoP
    At my April lecture, the presenter said that it was expected that “Night Tube” would probably wash it’s face within 18 months of opening – & sooner if they were fortunate.

    HM/timbeau/WW
    There’s the other problem with fares on TfL too – “Delay Repay” if you have a paper season, especially a point-to-point one, even an anuual “Gold Card” type.
    There seems to be no mechanism at all to be able to get your money back – except writing an e-mail to Tfl & hoping that they notice …….

70. It seems Boris has announced that the night tube may not begin on the planned date !

    Just goes to show you need to learn to walk before you can run ….

71. @WW, I would accept the charge of “trying to kid the system” with greater grace if there had been any physically possible cheaper route from White City to the NR platforms at Marylebone that I might have hoped to get away with paying for.

    Yes, a paper travelcard would have been simpler, though at the cost of having to know in the morning which zones one wanted to go to that day — which takes a lot of the simplicity away unless one buys a Z1-9 travelcard just-in-case.

    At the time my mental model of the daily-cap feature was that Oyster would retroactively figure out the cheapest combination of travelcards and single tickets that covered my actual itinerary, as long as I touched out/in often enough to make it unambiguous where I’d been. But I see now that hypothesis doesn’t even match the published caps and fares at all.

72. “if there had been any physically possible cheaper route from White City to the NR platforms at Marylebone”

    ….which there isn’t, a far as I can see. the first interchange stations between Chiltern and the Underground are Harrow-on-the-Hill and South Ruislip, both in Zone 5. So if you touch out with an Oyster having touched in anywhere other than Wembley Stadium, Northolt park, or the two Sudbury ghost stations, you must have been through Zone 5.

73. Melvyn

    As a paper point to point season ticket holder I would be delighted to have a key card with PAYG added. It would stop having to go to the gate line, paper ticket out and then Oyster in. But for reasons that escape me it’s not possible.

74. @ Henning M – having checked the TfL single fare finder there is not even a fare from White City to Marylebone NR platforms. This suggests to me that TfL have decided there is no logic in anyone travelling via Zone 5 in order to travel between Zone 1 and Zone 2. The only way in which the trip you made has any logic is if it is actually two journeys with South Ruislip the assumed destination where you exit and then re-enter later. There was no intention on my part to upset / annoy you. Sorry.

75. WW says ” … has any logic in it …”

    Griceing has of course it’s own logic, which TfL and Oyster do not understand.

    I think Henning might have been less disgruntled if it had been charged as two single journeys to and from zone 5. It is the incomplete journeys, outwith the protection of the cap, which seem to be unusual punishment for the enthusiast.

76. @Melvyn
    My understanding is that ITSO is the more antiquated technology than Oyster – a consequence of design by Committee and a lengthy run up to large scale implementation. Certainly Oyster has better functionality than ITSO (having used both systems). Having invested a lot of time, effort and money in establishing ITSO, however, the DfT has been loathe to give it up and has been pushing it actively through both franchising and a requirement that the English national concessionary fares scheme must be ITSO compliant – whether the bus operators are or (mainly) not. IIRC there were a number of rows a few years ago about the extension of Oyster onto TOC franchises that run across the boundary of London into the home counties – the Mayor wanted the extension but DfT did not. This led, amongst other things, to the requirement for the Southern Key. However the popularity of Oyster has ensured that it has won in other cases.

77. @Malcolm: Exactly. I don’t even know if that trip ought to be priced as two single journeys Z2-Z5 and Z5-Z1, or as one journey within Z12345 — but I did expect Oyster to know and do the right thing.

    @WW: You didn’t upset or annoy me.

78. @Henning Makholm

    Come to think, the Oyster system did exactly what it always does when things do not compute, it resolves the incomplete information it has into incomplete journeys. Exactly the same would happen if you made a perfectly straightforward journey, but spent so much time taking pictures on the platform that you went over the time limit.

    Incomplete journeys are deliberately priced slightly higher than anything that might have really happened, probably so that you will contact them and ask for the incomplete journeys to be refunded and replaced by whatever you actually did. Only if you chose not to, or thought it might be too much hassle, or didn’t think of it, will the incomplete journey charges stand.

79. @Malcolm: Very likely. (I think I did try to look up online how to contest the incompletes, but the procedure I found looked much too complex to be useful for tourists; don’t remember details, though).

    @timbeau’s experience that OSIs seem to be ignored for fare selection purposes makes me wonder: Suppose one spent all day going back and forth between, say, Victoria and Brixton, going on Southeastern one way and LU the other, and changing fast enough that the OSI rules apply at each end. Would the time limit for the first touch-in eventually run out so you risk ending up with incomplete journeys, despite touching out and in at every opportunity?

80. @Henning Makholm

    No, that’s not how it works. If you touch in and out at the OSI-specified places within the specified time, it’s only a potential OSI. To be an actual OSI it has to be surrounded by other touches that make it into a sensible journey with a correct fare.

    In the case you give, you would simply be charged for each journey between Victoria and Brixton.

81. @quinlet
    Actually the majority of bus operators are ITSO compliant. DfT pays an enhanced level of Bus Service Operators’ Grant to encourage them to do so (and many local authorities contributed to the capital cost) DfT used to publish these figures separately but appears now to just publish a lump sum for each operator (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-service-operators-grant-payments-to-english-operators-up-to-31-march-2013).

    What is absolutely true is that ITSO is slower than Oyster – partly because it is checking against many potential issuers of cards. This process can be speeded up by only looking at cards issued locally – hence why an out-of-area card often requires manual inspection because the ticket machine can’t read it.

    ITSO is also linked to some pan-European inter-operability standard that seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

82. Man of Kent,

    There is also the issue that the current generation of wave and pay cards are not as fast as the ones expected to be rolled out in the near future which I understand is actually more of an issue than that of reading the data and deciding on the necessary action. So long as it is all done within half a second the user is not generally aware of a delay which is what TfL is aiming for.

    I can’t imagine that having to check more card numbers on a database would make that much difference. If using a binary chop technique then you could double the number of card numbers to check with, on average, only one additional read of the database necessary. Other similar search methods are available. In any case I always presumed you only had to search the list of deactivated cards and did not have to do a positive check.

    Alternatively, if the reader can identify a card as issued by a particular issuer then potentially it only has to look at the card numbers for that issuer.

    Slightly off-topic, on LU the fastest cards are in fact staff cards which in reality say “I am a member of staff, open and let me through”. I presume that once it is identified as a staff card it only has to search the list of deactivated staff cards.

83. My tuppenceworth on ITSO – IT’S SLOW! I use one on the Oxford buses and a read is at least a second. Misreads are very common, admittedly exacerbated by the local operators’ recent habit of hiding the reader on the driver’s side through a perspex safety barrier with a tiny hole for the passenger’s hand to reach through. I go to London frequently and it seem to me as if ITSO needs a major technology upgrade, perhaps on the reader side and maybe the on the card too, if it is to be considered for the user volumes at peak at a typical tube station.

84. I have a Key card and I would agree with the slow comment. Around a second to register on gates. Certainly long enough to effect a definite stop and wait rather than plough straight through as with oyster. It has also never once worked at Purley and I have given up complaining as they don’t seem to be able to fix that.

85. Purley Dweller,

    Thats probably because it is not intended to work at Purley except that “Travelcard on key smartcard can be used on services in this area …”. See Keycard diagram.

86. @Man of Kent
    As I understand it neither ITSO nor Oyster actually check against all issued cards in real time. [Details snipped – see below] This is in an effort to ensure that the list of cards to check against is minimised.

    [More details snipped]

    [Moderator’s snips are to guard against the admittedly remote chance of someone misusing the information. Malcolm]

87. TFL have now confirmed that the start of The Night Tube is to be deferred see –

    https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/august/lu-decides-to-defer-launch-of-night-tube-to-allow-successful-conclusion-of-union-talks

    The announcement suggests it will now begin later in the Autumn but as Roger Ford would say ” don’t trust deadlines based on seasons!”

    Price you pay for announcing a start date before telling those who will do the work as would be normal procedure in most other countries .

    While announcing a start date simply gave extra bargaining leverage to unions as deadline approached and as this announcement will prove leave the Mayor and TFL as losers.

88. @Melvyn
    “don’t trust deadlines based on seasons”
    The alternative calendar
    “Christmas” January (Twelfth Night)
    “in the New Year” February (note “in”, not “at”)
    “winter 2016” March
    “Easter” April
    “early 2016” May
    “spring 2016” June
    “mid 2016” August
    “summer 2016” September
    “autumn 2016 ” November
    “late 2016” December

    “Seasons”, including Christmas, based on the end of the season, “early” meaning in the first half of the year, and “mid” in the middle third

89. Melvyn
    Price you pay for announcing a start date before telling those who will do the work as would be normal procedure in most other countries .
    Or other reasons/suspicions, some of which have been aired in the “normal” press [see below]….
    After all, I went to a presentation on the night tube, back in April & the presenter seemed to assume that negotiations were already underway, then.
    It seems he was misinformed & thus, so were we as to how far forward negotiations had proceeded ( i.e. they hadn’t )

    “Other” reasons ..
    I have several times, seen suggestions in the papers, that negotiations for rostering etc were proposed much earlier, but that “Boris” put a stop to it & was also “grandstanding” over the strike(s).
    What weight of belief one should put on such controversial allegations, I know not.

    timbeau
    TfL say “This Autumn”, so, by your scale that translates as: “Before 21st December” ??

90. @ Greg – there is usually a bit of an embargo about major changes to tube services in the run up to Christmas. Similarly there are few engineering works in December prior to Christmas to avoid disrupting the peak shopping weekends. I’d expect TfL would want the Night Tube in and working no later than mid November to give time for it to bed down and any wrinkles to be smoothed out before peak partying weekends in December. I have read elsewhere that the related Night Bus *reductions* won’t happen for a number of months after the Night Tube starts. Some of the proposed extra night routes, weekend night services plus SE London changes will happen on 12 September. TfL have updated the relevant consultation to reflect the 12/9 changes. Only three weekend night routes are going ahead early, the rest remain outstanding and we await more comment from TfL on those.

91. A PERFECT description

    Read, & save for posterity!

92. Greg Tingey 12 September 2015 at 08:07

    Excellent

    Except that I’ve met the leader of Redbridge Council. The Sikh tradition of unisex names can be confusing; the clothes are not.

93. Alan Griffiths

    Do you not recognise satire?

    I think they just took a random London Borough and invented a quote from the council leader!

94. I see from today’s Grauniad that the charity New Horizons Youth Centre hands out free night bus tickets to otherwise homeless youths, together with advice about the best routes on which to spend the night. Quite shocking (although I’m mindful of the story of the Chicago woman who lived on the all-night cars there before the War). TfL hasn’t commented so far, but no doubt the all night tube will attract similar traffic.

95. @GrahamH. I read that story too, and (going off topic) there is definitely a homeless problem in London. But (coming back into LR territory), I’m puzzled about how the charity has done this. As readers here will know, bus tickets (in the style understood in the rest of the UK) simply don’t exist in London. So what did the charity hand out? Travelcards? (at £12 a pop not good value). Oyster cards loaded with PAYG?

96. @IslandDweller: Bus Saver tickets? (not available to the public, but, last I heard, suitable organisations could buy them in bulk). If so, the charity may have problems buying more, after the news item. Or maybe not, if someone in TfL is sympathetic to this kind of sticking-plaster.

97. @Malcolm
    “the charity may have problems buying more, after the news item”

    Why? It’s all revenue for TfL.
    How many tickets would you need to get you through the night?

98. @timbeau It depends how assiduously drivers wake sleeping passengers at termini. If it were me, I would let them sleep on (if I was allowed to). And TfL might be expected (particularly with tabloids on the case) to carry out a show of enforcing their rules. I don’t know which rule sleepers would be breaking, but I expect there is one.

99. There is no rule against spending all night travelling on public transport, (or all day, otherwise Tube challengers would have a problem!) provided you have a valid ticket. It would be up to the driver when he logs the counterfoil of the ticket – when the passenger got on, or when an inspector calls several trips later?)

    The longest night bus route appears to be the N47 – 80 minutes each way. Three round trips would take about nine hours including layovers, and at 6x£1.50 is cheaper than a Travelcard. (wouldn’t you need two anyway, what time do ODTCs expire?)

100. @ Malcolm – almost certainly Bus Saver tickets and yes they can be purchased in bulk by organisations / businesses. Could be a One Day bus and tram pass and they’re widely available.

     @ Timbeau – the N47 no longer exists having been replaced by 24 hour route 47 from Shoreditch to Catford. The N199, running via Greenwich, now stretches to the depths of St Mary Cray. The issue about termini and sleepers has come up on other forums unsurprisingly. Apparently everyone must alight at a terminal so the driver has stand time. Passengers cannot be conveyed to route stands (which may not be a normal bus stop). If sleepers refuse to alight it has been said that some drivers issue a “code red” to Centrecomm requesting the Police to remove the people from the bus. This action may of course result in the bus running late or a journey being partly or fully cancelled. The news said that TfL were well aware of the issue (how can they not be!) and were working with relevant agencies. However it is clearly not TfL’s role to provide housing / shelter for vulnerable people of any age. That’s for others to resolve.

101. Free night bus tickets – the BBC story is here, with comment from TfL and on behalf of the Mayor. “At least one travelcard a week issued”.

     http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34352564

102. One of those Heathrow documentaries showed a homeless person who spent the night travelling to & fro on the night bus 2 or 3 years back. So I s’pose the only new thing is having a charity paying for it.

103. There was also this article two years ago in the Times Educational Supplement on the subject [of the homeless using night buses for shelter. LBM]

104. Both the BBC & the “Standard” are now reporting that “Night Tube” is unlikely to start until 2016.
     

105. From the reports I would read “unlikely” as “definitely not”.
     If RMT is to be believed
     “”……Boris Johnson has rung his officials from Japan and instructed them to kick the Night Tube into next year,”

106. Now the BBC is asking if the Night Tube is dying or dead.

     I suspect political interference here ( Boris) but I could be completely wrong, of course.
     Any other recent, accurate information?

107. @ Greg – all the article reflects is Boris’s latest statement that he’s not going to incur huge extra costs to introduce the Night Tube service. That takes the pressure off TfL to change its offer to the Unions. Whether it puts any more pressure on the unions to agree remains to be seen. The wider problem is that the annual pay deal has been linked into agreeing the night tube so how does that get agreed if the unions won’t move on work / life balance?

     Boris has no great incentive to do very much from now on as he’s going. He can leave the Night Tube for the next Mayor to fix alongside picking up the ramifications of that person’s policies and whatever funding nasties are about to be dropped on London by the Chancellor. I know I’ll be in a minority but I’m not hugely fussed by the Night Tube given the excellent night bus service. I just think Night Tube was a rushed idea that was put forward as a huge distraction tactic to divert attention from the cost reduction policy of closing ticket offices. In fact it may end up being to TfL’s budgetary advantage NOT to have the night tube – fewer staff to employ and less operating cost incurred. Any additional revenue was predicted as being small hence the very long pay back period for the scheme.

108. Given it will soon be Christmas and New Year when Mayoral election will be approaching chances are is that the Night Tube will be left to the next Mayor to sort out.

     While this delay has prevented the introduction of planned weekend night bus services and while this is less important on local routes serving stations main route like the 34 and 123 which could provide usual services even without the night tube have not gone ahead.

109. It should be remembered that some bus routes run all night at 20-30 minute intervals but are not actually designated “N” – examples include the 37 and 64.

110. @ Melvyn – to be strictly accurate a limited number of weekend night routes have started plus two new nightly routes. A few other routes have been enhanced. SE London has been the main gainer from these initial changes. The other changes have been delayed – it remains to be seen for how long. Much as I’d like the extra weekend night routes to begin I can understand why TfL have paused their introduction.

111. Courtesy of BBC & “Londonist”
     Night Tube already costing money
     But, I note: Talks at the conciliatory service ACAS are due to resume this week.

112. I too noted Greg’s link complaining TfL are “wasting” money, but those same people complaining would also be the first if there had been _no_ extra staff employed at the originally planned date!

     Was it ever thus.

113. My man on the ground at TfL confirms that there were talks at ACAS today, and expects the Night Tube to be up and running in the new year.

114. I anticipate the night tube starting no later than the end of March just before the pre election purdah period comes in.

115. Having previously noticed lots of enamel wayfinding signage giving advice on night tube arrangements go up in the connecting passages at Camden Town last summer, they have been changed back to the previous ones in the last few days, suggesting a very much continuing ‘indefinite’ period.

116. There were still Night Tube stickers on the enamel signs above the tunnels to the Bank branch when I came through Camden Town yesterday.

117. It seems that the NUR has agreed terms for the night tube see link below-

     http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-london-news/night-tube-union-accepts-pay-10972469

     News is also on Evening Standard site.

     Now it’s up to ASLEF and other unions to agree settlement .

118. I note that the Telegraph, Independent are saying TfL are starting the service “is set to be launched in August” with (here’s the new info) “on the Victoria and Jubilee lines in August and then on the Central, Northern and Piccadilly lines in September”.

     I can’t help noticing, as it’s me, that the official map on the official TfL page seems to have been produced without noting that Stratford, West Ham and Canning Town are in Zone 2/3 not Zone 3 as shown.

     I’m really not sure how a staggered start date (perhaps a soft-launch???) will work in practice.

119. @ Briantist – the newspaper headlines have actually nicked what was in the Morning Star (!) who were quoting ASLEF. TfL have denied there are any dates being worked to – presumably to avoid mucking up attempts to settle with Unite, TSSA and RMT at Tube Lines. They will also not want to lumber the next Mayor with a hostage to fortune over start dates because doing that is very likely to be extremely career limiting indeed as the new Mayor will most likely still be in “hiring and firing” mode with axe in hand come August. The BBC speculated that August was being considered because it is typically a quieter period as people are away on holiday and some businesses are closed. We will obviously wait and see what transpires.

120. @Briantist
     “I’m really not sure how a staggered start date (perhaps a soft-launch???) will work in practice.”
     In particular, a number of gates have been built to separate night tube from non-night tube platforms: but of course there are none between the lines which are said to be opening in August and those opening later. So what will happen at Green Park, or Euston, or Tottenham Court Road in the interim?

121. I don’t mean TCR – it’s the next two stops down the Central Line where the problems would be (for completeness, also Finsbury Park, Kings Cross, Warren Street, Waterloo, Stockwell, and Stratford)

122. @ Timbeau – many platforms now have “tensa barriers” installed to allow them to be “closed” when engineering works happen. Now I accept they are not exactly invulnerable to challenge but if we are only talking about a few weekends that may be enough to cope along with some added police / staff presence as necessary.

123. See ALSEF Shrugged’s blog for updates, too.
     He notes, however, that “NT” opening depends, entirely, upon having enough trained, certificated “passed-drivers” as staff before any opening anywhere & that said training takes 16 weeks.

124. Not part of the tube network, but nevertheless pretty much considered as such, night services have been announced today for London Overground on the East London Line. Initially the service will run between New Cross Gate and Dalston Junction from December 2017 with this being extended to Highbury and Islington from early in 2018. The news can be found on TfL’s main twitter feed along with that of the Mayor for London as well as across various media outlets such as BBC London News. The strange thing is that unions haven’t been consulted at all to date. I will therefore be very surprised if this goes to schedule.

125. @ Latecomer – have the unions made a pronouncement about “lack of consultation”? This “launch” is not really news – the idea of a Night Overground was announced a long while ago. It was very clear and in the public domain that this would be a priced option in the new Overground concession contract along with things like Boxing Day services. I would be a tad surprised if Arriva have not broached the subject, even informally, with the trade unions. It may even have been discussed in LOROL days so that both Arriva and MTR would have had a view as to the union reaction / “demands”.

     You may be right that we end up in a “ransom” situation again but I don’t think this improvement is being used as “cover” for controversial staffing changes as it was for LUL. It also doesn’t really have the same political significance as the Night Tube did. To be honest will anyone greatly care if a limited Night Overground service doesn’t start on time? The Mayor’s opponents will wail and moan because that’s their job but who else? A few hipsters who have a drink in Hoxton and Shoreditch at the weekend?

     The far bigger issue, in terms of strike potential and political downside, will be how the next pay round on the Tube is handled whenever that is due.

126. @WW – Not yet. There has been a marked difference in industrial relations since the change in ownership. The union has a list of things that it needs in place (a list which I won’t reveal here) and we are astonished that management don’t appear to have felt that negotiation is required. They believe that we already do night turns. In effect these are just two turns a night which only very rarely involve the running of a de-icing train or an extremely rare ECS move. Customer facing staff have already been reduced at some stations and this exactly the sort of thing that makes us believe that the driver perspective is either being overlooked or disregarded.

     We have a lot of security and safety concerns presently and there is also a feeling that the type of work we already do on Friday and Saturday evenings is not adequately risk assessed given it is known as ‘the party line’. Even the press releases have said the service will be great for ‘revellers’, which to us is a pseudonym for severely intoxicated high-risk travellers.

     You may be right that a delay to such a service commencing may be no great deal, but it’s still baffling that ARL haven’t told TfL that they aren’t quite ready – unless they think it can just be imposed on us. Extra services on Friday and Saturday nights of course loads more work on to weekends and will mean that we would no longer have the one weekend on, one off arrangement that we have now. That may not seem a big deal, but it is when you consider the unsocial hours we already work and the negative impact on family life. The issues of fatigue on our particularly intensive line (note that is compounded by the actions of large groups of intoxicated passengers), means that there is a lot to be discussed.

     I’m not prone to reading the Standard, but looking at some of the feeds today I’m struck that many of the Twitter replies have been from concerned residents regarding all night noise. Even though they have cranked up the grease on some of the curves you still get rail squeal at times and the elevated section between Shoreditch and Dalston will cause some issues I’m sure. The line runs very close to residential properties. There is an awful lot to be discussed before the first service runs.

127. Latecomer
     There has been a marked difference in industrial relations since the change in ownership.
     Would it be impolite to ask – in what way has that change manifested itself?
     Or is that too sensitive a question, right now?

128. Or is that too sensitive a question, right now?

     The question is relevant and needs to be asked given that it is an important factor. Also, far better not to discuss it in the “heat of the moment” but in a cool, calm manner as a suitable time – such as now.

     If Latecomer wishes to answer that is down to him. Usual rules apply. Comments must be as if from an intelligent disinterested onlooker and not from a party political perspective.

129. @Greg Tingey
     I won’t go into specifics on certain issues but in general the number of ‘fail to agree’ outcomes in negotiations between management and ASLEF has multiplied many times over. These were rare events under the previous management. Changes have occurred involving a reduction in the presence of various other staff that directly affect our role which we have no doubt are about cost cutting, yet there was no consultation with us.

     We have a long list of concerns yet to be addressed. Pay is not a primary issue to me but the current talks have been extremely protracted and everything is being loaded with ‘big stick’ conditions. As WW observed, we knew night services were coming and ARL did not disguise their intent, but we are completely bewildered why preliminary negotiations weren’t started months ago. There are rostering arrangements to be overcome, assurances required over security, safety and staff able to assist drivers. There are what may seem like minor details such as will cleaners be on hand to deal with vomit on trains? The frustrating thing is that drivers can often come up with constructive solutions, especially around diagraming and what may work in terms of efficiency and what doesn’t work for driver fatigue and our need to be able to reach accessible toilets from time to time.

     On a less measurable level there is simply the feeling in the messroom that we aren’t being treated fairly. In a general sense industrial relations were pretty good before, but right now a lot of us sense a storm is brewing. It is not wanted by the drivers, we’re a modern depot and not known as hard left troublemakers so it is a huge shame that things appear to be deteriorating. We’ve been through a lot and worked under pretty tough conditions keeping packed services running during the Southern disputes and London Bridge works. We expect a little more respect and I hope this will come.

130. @ Latecomer – thank you for those comments. Illuminating and interesting as ever. Always good to get some additional insight as to how “staff side” are considering matters. I had read elsewhere that there had been changes to the station staffing regime and more use of contracted, rather than permanent, staff since the concession contract changed hands. Clearly all part of subtle but assumed cost cutting in Arriva’s bid to win the contract. This is where you see the downside of competitive commercial pressure to win bids while also “offering the earth” (at least on the surface). We see the same with the bus contract tendering regime. It will be very interesting to see how things progress.

131. @WW: It makes me wonder what the qualitative criteria are in evaluating the bids. With qualitative I mean non-monetary things, such as staffing of stations.

     My list would include:

     – Zero hours contracts
     – Sub-contracting
     – Adequate levels of cover for absence
     – Staff safety
     – Levels of cleanliness

     As TfL have marketed the Overground in certain ways (e.g. All stations staffed from first train to last), I wonder how the bids are evaluated against that.

     Is this made public or are those bids all private?

     @Latecomer: Thank you for sharing your thoughts, they are very insightful…

132. Am I correct in thinking this section of track is owned by tfl (albeit with day to day management contracted to Network Rail)? Has this had a bearing on the ability to announce a night service?

133. Thank you WW. I hadn’t actually read PoP’s criterion for a reply before submitting my own but it has appeared unedited. I hope I succeeded in not being ‘party political’, although I have failed miserably on the ‘disinterested onlooker’ front. Of course I am partial, but I do hope people understand that there is a real bashing that goes on about what we get paid (with misinformation thrown in) in both the regional newspapers that litter our trains. In all the conversations we have amongst drivers, pay is normally several items down the list. The ones at the top are normally about preserving our ‘Safety of Line’ records (and therefore our livelihoods), fatigue and work/life balance, safety and security of us and our passengers, diagraming and driver facilities.

     There is every likelihood that negotiations will now commence on nights and during this time I will have to be quite guarded about further comment. If there isn’t negotiation and instead there is an attempt at imposition, then we are left in a very difficult situation.

134. @ SHLR – I expect TfL will set certain things like the London Minimum Wage has to be paid (that’s longstanding on TfL contracts), that there are minimum ambience standards to be achieved and how TfL will measure this (I’m an old hand at this one on LU and still have the worry lines to prove it) and will require the operator to have the necessary Safety Certificate. I am sceptical as to how prescriptive TfL will be in many of these areas because that may affect the price and limit the scope for contractors to be genuinely innovative. The legislation will define the “back stop” positions on things like safety and what company would want the ignomy of failing to gain or maintain their Safety Certificate.

     Obviously what is written down on paper as to be delivered too but let’s not kid ourselves that *all* bidders identify and write down the pitfalls and the opportunities and “red lines” in every contract. They know where the client hasn’t been clear, where the incentives may not work as the client may wish etc etc. And the client will have their own view as to where they may the supplier over the barrel as well.

     The things that Latecomer refers are very interesting because many of them are quite dynamic and are either “in control” or “at risk of not being in control” often through quite small changes. Those changes may seem innocuous on paper but if management don’t consult and discuss them properly then they run the risk of crossing a line which then causes rumbling discontent. Taking staff off platforms altogether or reducing their hours might seem fine on paper and “kerching” cash in bank but if passenger volumes change or spread out in unexpected ways and this isn’t spotted then you’re back in the danger zone. The same thing thing can happen with something as apparently unimportant as cleaning. Doesn’t take many discarded drinks cans or newspapers to blow down tunnels and lodge in points or jam between rails to cause fires or signal failures or jamming in doors. It’s just one of a thousand things that has to be kept on top of or else you’re at risk of service disruptions and losing money.

     The Overground Concession contract is online as I found it a few months ago although it was under the most obscure title imaginable. I can’t remember what it was. I was interested to see how the Class 710s would be brought into service. I doubt you will see any monetary values in it as these are typically redacted.

135. Latecomer,

     The comments are fine. They are objective and explain the issues as seen from one side. Obviously you have a personal interest but I was careful to state “as if from a disinterested onlooker” rather require than you to actually be one.

     I don’t think you have to be a fan of trade unions to wonder why they don’t sort out the agreement first then announce it to the world. As you point out, there is a lot to discuss.

     I think we need to bear in mind that both sides will probably reflect on what gets agreed for the East London line when plans are put into place to introduce Night Crossrail – so it is pretty important to spend time getting a workable agreement that both sides are happy with as it will probably set a precedent.

136. I might just add that WW’s insightful comment regarding the fact that some of the issues “…are quite dynamic and are either “in control” or “at risk of not being in control” often through quite small changes” is an excellent synopsis of the current situation.

     This doesn’t just relate to possible internal discontent or a souring of industrial relations. I would be surprised if there hasn’t already been some ‘trickle down’ effect on the passenger experience. If you travel regularly through the tunnel sections on the ELL once the crowds have subsided a little and there is enough space to walk through the train, you might have felt that there’s been an increase in people begging on trains (I am not making any social judgement here on their right to do so or not). If you regularly travel at 10am on a Saturday or Sunday morning you may wonder why the beer bottles and takeaway cartons are still littered on the platforms from the night before. If you catch the last Overground services from Clapham Junction you might have just begun to notice that there doesn’t seem to be anyone on hand to advise the less frequent travelers that the ELL service is departing from platform 1, not platform 2.

     Some of these ‘small’ changes may not have filtered through to the majority and therefore through to any customer satisfaction surveys as I would imagine the average commuter has seen little change. Some of these issues do however affect the driver role, not least in our face to face contact with passengers as we change ends or we ‘pass’ on trains to our next working. They roughen the edges a little for both passengers and staff, regardless as to whether there is any actual disruption to services from these micro changes.

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