Plans for the Hackney Downs – Hackney Central pedestrian link has been approved by Hackney Council, and full details can now be found online. According to TfL, the link will cost about £5m
The two stations were previously linked via a similar walking connection, although this was removed a long time ago.
The interchange in about 1900, courtesy TfL
Back in 2008, 700,000 people a year were estimated to use the stations to interchange between the West Anglia and North London lines, a figure that will only have increased with the success of the Overground. TfL estimated at the time that this figure would almost double were a physical link between the two stations provided. At the time they proposed a scheme that would see a relatively direct link between Hackney Downs’ platform 1 and Hackney Central’s platform 2 (the ticket hall side), but this was ultimately scuppered by the need to remove several large trees and, more crucially, the fact that it would require various signals equipment to be moved by Network Rail.
The current plan, which was approved at the end of last year, thus takes a slightly more circuitous route, linking platform 1 at Hackney Downs with platform 1 at Hackney Central.
The planned Hackney Downs – Hackney Central link, from the planning document
Despite the longer distance, this still knocks a considerable amount of time off of interchanging at the site. Currently this involves exiting Hackney Downs and walking down Dalston Lane and Amhurst Road before entering Hackney Central (or vice versa), a walk of approximately ten minutes (or more if the lure of the Pembury Tavern on the corner of Amhurst Road cannot be resisted). By contrast, the new link will cut that journey time considerably, and will also have the benefit of being “barrier side” at both stations.
A concept image, although the final version is likely to have green panels
Another visual, courtesy of TfL
The link (following from Downs to Central) will connect at the far end of platform 1 and run at high level alongside the current viaduct over the West Anglia lines. It’ll then turn and connect to stairs and a lift tower that mirror, in style, those currently found at Hackney Central. These will then drop down to a ramp which will run parallel to the NLL tracks before connecting to platform 1 at Hackney Central.
The link at the Hackney Downs end
The link at the Hackney Central end
The link will be covered and inside it will be 2.5m metres wide and high, with cameras, monitors and help points along its length, and LED lighting. Where possible (so largely at the Hackney Central end) it will have mesh sides. All this is intended to prevent it from becoming too oppressive a space, given its length.
Inside the Hackney stations link
In terms of station management (as it is worth remembering that both stations are within different franchises) it will fall within the remit of Hackney Central (i.e. TfL), and be open as long as the station is manned.
The elevations
According to the planning documents, construction is likely to begin in 2014 with completion by July that year. Overall it’s a positive scheme, and one that will bring clear benefits. It’s location will make any future platform extension works at Hackney Central potentially trickier to manage, but the station is already long enough to take six car trains and there’d be far larger issues to be addressed elsewhere on the NLL before trains longer than that length became a possibility.
Thanks to MD for the spot
When I went past a few weeks ago there was obvious progress on the ground at Hackney, but nothing as substantial as shown in these photos of work at the weekend included in this tweet from London Overground. Looks like the link should be finished in time to coincide with the London Overground takeover of the West Anglia Inner services.
@JA – TfL’s own target date says July for the new link and not late May when LOROL take over. There is much still to be done including a lift at the Hackney Downs end of the link. It will also need to be checked over and signed off by the Fire Brigade together with new evacuation and management plans for the two stations. I wouldn’t be overly surprised to see the services / paperwork phase of the work take as long as the physical construction on site does.
There is no start yet on works on the Hackney Downs platform-ends, where a hole needs to be made in the parapet wall, for the new link to join in.
A lot of the tower & walkway will obviously be up in the next month, but WW is almost certainly correct – July is much more likely to be when it all opens.
Progress now well advanced.
“Scissors” sliding gates installed at both ends of the walkway – which appears complete from the outside, & taped-over signs (presumably showing direction to the “other” station) along the platform backs.
Without successfully looking at the TfL web-site, I would guess this weekend for opening?
[ I put “Hackney Link” & also “Corporate” into TfL’s own search box & got nothing …. ]
I saw it at Hackney Downs last Friday. The signs were uncovered but the scissors gates were closed. I look forward to using it while shoving the grandson along in his luxury kinderwagon. Shame I will have to find another way back as the stairs at Hackney Downs still block the return route.
On a related theme – hat tip to “Ian Visits”:
http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=bridgeatchiswickpark004.htm
Apparent agreement to buid a pedestrian link from the Gunnerbury / Chiswick Business Park to Chiswick Park station.
Seems like a good idea to me?
What is the latest please? Went from Wood Street to Shepherds Bush on my annual alternative route in the event of tube strikes.Direction signs now covered with black tape and gates shut though everything looks finished.
[Moderator’s note. At first we thought you were asking for the latest news on the tube strike, and your message was snipped accordingly (we don’t do hour-to-hour stuff, and it would have been off topic). Then it was realised that you probably meant the latest on the Hackney Downs – Hackney Central link; if that was what you meant, you couldn’t have been more on topic, the passing mention of the tube strike confused us. Malcolm]
Yes I was asking about the latest on the link between the two stations!
Does anyone know any more?Contractors still in occupation perhaps.When I looked at it from the Hackney Central end I thought I could see quite a bit of their equipment still there.
Both lifts at Hackney Central out of use.
In the event of tube strikes that is how I get to Hammersmith where I work.
As a regular, but not daily user of that line … don’t know.
It appears from outside, that everything is “finished”, but, of course, we don’t know what internal bits & pieces still need fettling. Also an HMRI visit, or equivalent will be required before they can open to the public & we don’t know if this has happened yet, or if recommendations have been made, which must be observed, before public opening.
[ Historically, reading old texts, it appears that HMRI were “hot” on stairways & access/egress routes being safe & easy to negotiate, as far back as the 1870’s, demanding smoother surfaces, properly “nailed-down” steps & handrails & signage! ]
So far a Google-dive has produced nothing.
@ Greg – I doubt there would be a HMRI (or equivalent) visit these days. The onus has moved to the operator having to clearly demonstrate they have properly assessed and assured that the work has been done to the required standard and all the required checks and handovers from construction to operation / maintenance have taken place. Also that the respective station managers and their teams have workable and understood evacuation / crowd control measures. It’s self assurance not detailed checking by an external body. Nonetheless the Safety Certificate that sets out all those controls, processes and competent people requirements *is* reviewed and signed off by ORR. I have been responsible, in the past, for aspects of LU’s Safety Case and later Safety Certificate. Things have may have changed again so happy to be corrected if what I’ve said is not up to date.
The one external body who probably will visit is the fire brigade so they understand the revised layouts, boundaries between stations and how a fire or emergency would be handled. There may even be a need for a mock evacuation to be done just so it tests out the processes but that may be optional at this stage.
I’ve not seen any update on progress or opening dates for the link recently. It often takes a wee bit longer to “snag” new assets, get sign offs and get the whole scheme over the finishing line.
I did the transfer from Hackney Downs to Hackney Central last Wednesday. As mentioned, the signs are taped over. I have done this twice recently, and both times the good people of Hackney have helped me to carry the grandson’s buggy down the stairs. It’s getting embarrassing. Hurry up and open that link!
fandroid
Unfortunately, there is an embarrasing precednt here.
Walthamstow Central “Queens Road” where, even after all the infrastructure was correctly in place various official faffings meant that it took approx another 3 months before the mere public were allowed to use it.
In Another Place it was reported that London Overground had tweeted yesterday that the link would open today, only to tweet this morning to say the opening date is still “tba”. I have learned never to trust anything a railway operator tells me, but on this occasion one of those two statements must be true! Does anyone know which one?
Appeared to be open when I went through Hackney Downs today at lunchtime – signs uncovered and gate open.
Given that Hackney Downs has no other lifts, this link could be a (very) roundabout way of getting either a step-free access for those travelling to Liverpool Street from Hackney, or a step-free exit for those travelling to Hackney from the Chingford direction. Bad luck if you want to travel back from Liverpool Street. I suppose you could go on to Walthamstow Central, walk or wheel round over the road bridge and then come back again!
@Fandoid
On a more positive note, the Hackney interchange volume pre-marketing on tube map and pre-fixed link opening usage of the interchange was about 150k per year (May 2015 survey).
Use was largely by peak time commuters and the occasional offpeak travellers and Westfield shoppers, who had had to work out for themselves that a 7 minute street interchange with no info about what the trains were doing (or not) on the other line was still a route worth using if not entirely trusting.
The future users of the link will also include users of the other station who find that this is a more efficient way of reaching their street origin/destination – eg Amhurst Road to Hackney Central station, and Mare Street to Hackney Downs station.
At 150,000, the pre-marketing interchange volume (and also pre-physical link) was already higher than 1,000 of the 2,537 entry/exit volumes (ORR data, sorry) listed for all NR stations. Among interchange volumes, this was in the top 200 NR internal interchanges (ie, excluding NR/LUL etc). If demand rose to 500k a year, it would be in the top 100, and at 1 million per year, in the top 50. No-one is counting those chickens yet, but a recount a year from now might prove interesting.
Further to the note above, a growth in link use would help improve the business case for more lift facilities at Hackney Downs, for the entrance and other platforms, and for the possible reopening for railway use of the 1870 station building at Hackney Central, one of only two NLR station buildings which survive.
The intrepid Diamond Geezer has been and used the link on our behalf. It’s today’s entry on his blog.
I see TfL haven’t bothered to list this as an alternative route while the Victoria is shut (Highbury and Islington to Tottenham Hale, James Street or Walthamstow Central).
@ TFB, TFO – TfL are trying hard to persuade people NOT to use the Chingford line. I’ve had a leaflet for the 558 extra bus to Seven Sisters popped through my letter box. This despite the fact that the 558 is at least 20 minutes walk away in the wrong direction and therefore useless for me. The stress in the leaflet is “don’t go via Walthamstow Central to use the Overground”. Given trains are only every 15 mins and we still see the odd short formation and cancellation it’s safe to say the Chingford line will be seriously oversubscribed when it’s having to cope with demand normally met by tubes running every 3-4 minutes.
It is also worth just noting, given we’re talking about links, that if I’ve read the info properly that the recently opened short cut between Walthamstow Central and Queens Road stations will be shut during the Vic Line blockade. This is because the car park at WWCS is being commandeered – either for the replacement buses or lorries for the worksite or both. Pedestrian access via the car park is prohibited which means the short distance link is closed. I suspect that will catch people unawares leaving them with a much longer walk via local streets. I think TfL need to be shouting this from the rooftop because the maps for the blockade strongly show a link between the stations but don’t stress the fact it may be up to a 20 minute walk rather than 5-7 minutes.
According to Diamond Geezer passengers are being “encouraged” to use pink Oyster scanners passing through the link – does this mean that use as suggested to access either of the station’s via the other’s entrance/exit is discouraged and will lead to a fare being charged? Similar to Blackfriars station platforms NOT being available as a pedestrian route across the river.
@ Philip – they can’t force you to validate a card. I think if you touch on the pink validator but exit at Hackey Central having travelled to Hackney Downs from elsewhere that there will be zero impact on the fare charged. All it does is set a route indicator.
Interestingly the Single Fare Finder has yet to be updated to reflect the existence of a pink validator at Hackney Downs / Central. It still refers to the OSI at that location. I dare say this will be updated in the near future.
I expect people are so forcibly encouraged to touch on the pink reader because the routeing system otherwise sends people via Liverpool Street and Stratford. This means that the revenue apportioning system would then incorrectly apportion a chunk of the revenue for that journey to either the Underground or – Heaven forbid! – Abellio Greater Anglia…
@ Straphan – you old cynic! Surely AGA will get a slice of revenue regardless given they serve Hackney Downs at certain times anyway? I rather expect it is about making sure people pay the right fare given that in the past they didn’t have to consider intermediate validation because they did it without thinking by using the gates at each side of the OSI at Hackney Downs / Central.
@Walthamstow Writer: if it was just about getting people to pay the correct fare I doubt they would feel the need to employ two enforcers telling people to touch in or else…
AGA will of course get a slice of the revenue, but – given the frequency of service and given that the station is in Zone 2 and not 1 – that slice will be far thinner.
@Straphan
It’s probably seen as a good idea to avoid the negative publicity if people don’t do it and then complain about overcharging.
@WW. Thanks for the alert about closure of the Queens Road-Central link. I use that rather a lot, not as an interchange but as a sensible way to get from Queens Road to Hoe Street. And I’m sure that I’m not the only one! If it’s true, then it seems to be well OTT, as the car park itself is big enough for any operational stuff without shoving extra pain onto mere pedestrians too. (but who ever thought of pedestrian convenience when mighty plans are being implemented? – grump over)
@Jonathan Roberts. Interesting data on the current levels of interchange between Hackney this and Hackney that. When one is doing the trip at ground level, it’s just about impossible to see who else might be doing the same thing. I don’t really know Hackney, apart from three Hackney-labelled stations I have used recently, so could not offer any thoughts on where the main population might actually live or where the main economic centre might be.
Your comment about Westfield shoppers also hits the spot. I have spent a lot of time trying to work out the best step-free way to get from Walthamstow Central (or Queens Road) to Stratford. There are a lot of choices, but none of them very attractive. I suspect I will be giving the new link a try out in the near future, but returning via Tottenham Hale (not during August!).
@ Fandroid – well the way you use the link at Queens Rd is one reason why I think TfL need to be shouting from the rooftops about the closure implications. The second issue is the map of alternative services and links produced by TfL places weight on the WWCS – Queens Rd link and I think sending people round the houses is unhelpful at best and downright misleading at worst. I’ve lived in E17 for a long time but I still get confused trying to find Queens Rd station via the back streets. I’ve had to resort to my Assembly Member to try to get clarification of the arrangements.
I suspect there may be some instances when large lorries need to access the car park area and that may be what has prompted the “no access” requirement. If I have guessed right then I still think that some sensible marshalling and publicity could keep a pedestrian route open but clearly public expectations need to be managed. If it’s just RRS bus movements then that should be more readily manageable.
In terms of your step free Walthamstow – Stratford journey then I think you’re left with the 69 or 97 buses or rail replacement service B during the blockade. The latter seems as if it will be routed via Markhouse Rd, Lea Bridge Road and Orient Way into the Olympic Park and Stratford City. In other words broadly what a rail service over a reinstated Low Hall Farm curve would do (in terms of general directions followed). Clearly a train won’t be using those roads (just before someone states the obvious)!
@ Fandroid and others – I have just looked again at the Vic Line closure travel advice and seen that it’s been updated. To my great surprise they are altering the Overground train services too with services being retimed, missing out stops and some stations being barred to entry. Heaven help you if you travel from Clapton in the AM peak – no trains given AGA don’t call at all!
From Monday 10 until Friday 28 August, an amended timetable will operate between Chingford/Enfield Town and Liverpool Street:
– Clapton: trains will not stop before 09:30
– St. James Street: exit only before 09:30
– Edmonton Green: Abellio services will not stop at Edmonton Green in the morning peak
– Chingford, Highams Park, Wood Street: before 09:30, southbound trains will depart two minutes earlier than usual
– Enfield Town, Bush Hill Park: before 09:30, southbound trains will depart one minute earlier than usual
Detailed travel advice will follow, check back to this page for updates.
That all looks rather drastic.
Possibly they’ll get AGA to stop Hertford and/or slow Cambridge trains at Clapton. Otherwise I can see major, major protests. St Jims being exit-only in the morning peak will cause some anger as well, especially if it isn’t announced widely enough.
Presumably this is a result of the TfL now being in charge, or did BR/previous TOCs make similar service alterations when the Victoria line was closed?
@WW. Rail Replacement service B sounds like a bit of market testing to find out if things have changed since the last study decided that there was ‘no demand’ for a direct Walthamstow-Stratford rail link. Given the rapidly changing demographics of E17 they would possibly be best advised not to be too enthusiastic in publicising that bus service.
Perhaps it’s the fore-runner of a permanent express bus route (pigs airborne!).
Back to the topic.
I have been re-reading the original article, and am severely bemused!
The link (following from Downs to Central) will connect at the far end of platform 1 and run at high level alongside the current viaduct over the West Anglia lines. It’ll then turn and connect to stairs and a lift tower that mirror, in style, those currently found at Hackney Central. These will then drop down to a ramp which will run parallel to the NLL tracks before connecting to platform 1 at Hackney Central.
Firstly, what’s that about the current viaduct over the West Anglia lines ? The only viaduct I can see is that over the North London Line.
Secondly, the actual link doesn’t cross the NLL and connects with platform 2 at Hackney Central.
I may have missed a vital update in the comments (they mostly date from 2013), if so forgive me. However, it is tricky for anyone who reads the article and hasn’t visited those stations to realise what has been delivered in the real world (exactly 1 year late!)
@ Fandroid – there is a simple answer in terms of serving Orient Way down to Stratford. Just extend the W19 on from Argall Avenue to Lea Bridge Rd (Station in future) and then straight down. Knowing TfL they may grudgingly extend it to Lea Bridge station when it opens given the nearest bus stops are a bit of a trek and I can see people living on Markhouse Avenue wanting to get to Lea Bridge station either for trains or a bus to Hackney. The main issue is getting all day access through the council yard at South Access Road if the service were to be extended south.
I think the RRS is just a way of shifting people away from completing overloading the 69 and 97 which are full in the rush hour anyway towards Leyton. Stratford also has more scope to cope with displaced demand into Zone 1. It may work OK given the absence of schools traffic. I couldn’t see it working on a normal weekday given the dreadful congestion on Markhouse Road at its junction with Lea Bridge Rd.
@ Philip – I get a sense there are last minute changes going on. I’ve just rechecked the recent newsletter from my Assembly Member which talks about the blockade arrangements. She met with TfL but no mention of these changes to the Overground service at all. I can’t imagine she wouldn’t have mentioned them if she’d been told about them!! I’ve raised a query with her about these changed station access / train service issues.
I’m flabbergasted at that snippet about the alterations at Clapton. It’s a pretty busy station these days – around three times the entrances and exits as just a few years ago.
Fortunately, I work from home, so seldom need to travel in the peak, but it certainly seems fairly well used when I have had to do it. I wasn’t aware of that change at all until I saw WW’s comment here.
I’ll have a look when I pass the station later, but I don’t think I saw any prominent notice – which there really ought to be given this amounts to “You can’t commute to work from this station for three weeks in August”
Buried at the bottom of a page of information about a line that doesn’t even pass through the station is not the way to ensure local people get to hear about it.
The information is on display in a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory in the basement with a sign of the door saying “Beware of the Leopard”
There is no mention on the rainbow board of any disruption on the Overground on those dates, even if you click on the Victoria Line banner. The information is only found if you click on the “major works and events” tab right at the bottom of the rainbow screen, and then click several times through to the Vic Line works, and then scroll right down to the bottom to find that Clapton and St James are closed every morning for three weeks.
This is not going to be a good advertisement for TfL’s management of the route – as if it hadn’t had enough bad publicity already.
And I’ve just checked the NR journey planner, which is still showing a normal service from Clapton in the morning peaks on a random date in mid-August.
And no replacement bus services are shown on the TfL pages as serving these stations.
@ Timbeau – your comments are just reinforcing my view that someone is having a panic about the impact of the closure. It strikes me as bizarre that fundamental things like closed stations and no peak service are only emerging now. Your point about nothing appearing on the look ahead documents is very pertinent. Things like the map showing alternative services should also be showing things like closed stations and it doesn’t – again reinforcing my “last minute” theory.
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/victoria-line-closure-map.pdf
No warnings on that!
@WW
It does at least show that the line through Clapton is affected, albeit in some unspecified way!
To get back to the original topic: wasn’t there a comment on another post reporting that TFL had pointed to this connection as an alternative to re-opening the Hall Farm Curve? I tried it out a few days ago out of curiosity, and it’s definitely very competitive with bus travel between Walthamstow and Stratford in terms of time. But on the other hand, I don’t think either Walthamstow-Hackney or Hackney-Stratford have the spare capacity if there’s a major shift from buses in the peak hours.
WW
(24 July 2015 at 09:23)
If true, that is an utter disgrace … I do hope it ain’t so.
and
25 July 2015 at 17:55 …
Yes, Clapton is busy & an increasing number of people hop across the valley, too.
Agree re “panic” – I think the actual numbers using the present services have only just penetrated … & I can’t find any even diagrammatic “maps” of the replacement/extra bus services (yet) – as said replacement “B” parallelling the Hall Farm curve could be “interesting”
@ Greg – yes the car park and link path will be closed because of bus and lorry movements in the car park. This was confirmed in a newsletter I had from Jennette Arnold (AM). TfL are apparently signposting an alternative walking route.
There has been another press release today from LU which confirms no trains *in either direction* at Clapton prior to 0930 weekdays. No replacement service being provided at Clapton. The PR specifically says TfL are expecting Overground trains to be full on departure from Walthamstow. It also says AGA’s peak trains via Edmonton Green aren’t stopping there because they’re expected to be full – seems they are assuming people will change at Broxbourne / Cheshunt in order to reach the tube rather than running via T Hale. I rather suspect people already on the main line will simply go into Liv St and connect on from there. A minority may opt to bus between T Hale and Seven Sisters *if* their destination is somewhere in North London which the Vic Line reaches. I expect people will be held in queues at Seven Sisters whether entering from the street or from the national rail platforms. The big difference for Seven Sisters will be that every s/b train will be empty on arrival allowing a lot of people to clear the platforms although obviously there will be more demand from street level as people tip off the RRS.
RRS replacement rail service
While I’m at it, from a day or two ago:
CIL – Community Infrastructure Levy, a planning charge introduced by the Planning Act 2008 for local authorities to help deliver infrastructure to support development of their area. Development may be liable for a charge under the Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL), if the local planning authority has chosen to set a charge in its area.
WW
This is utterly disgraceful & as timbeau almost says smells badly of panic.
ONE: Closing the WHC – WMW link completely seems very “over-the-top” … so, the car park is being used as a building site & store-dump, so what?
It should have been trivially easy to ensure a safe, enclosed path, with mesh guards to protect the walking passengers, along the South side of the entire site – but “they” apparently couldn’t be bothered – the public can just lump it – or that will be the perception, even if not true.
TWO: NO trains stopping @ Clapton ( & Exit-only @ St James St in the AM peak …)
what about people wanting to get from SJS to say Highams Park or Chingford (& quite a few do, for work), never mind anyone with an annual/quarterly/monthly season from Clapton to LST, who are going (quite frankly) be defrauded of the service for which they have already paid, up-front & in advance.
I wonder, actually, if the latter could be subject to a legal challenge by a “disgusted of Clapton” or a user-group, for said removal of a service for which payment has already been made.
This has all the hallmarks of a potential gigantic PR disaster, never mind (!) the gross & unnecessary inconvenience inflicted.
I do hope TfL “get a grip” & re-organise things in a manner better-suited to the actual needs of their paying & paid-up customers between now & V-day?
Getting back to the original topic (again) I’ve used the link a few times whilst traveling from Stoke Newington to Stratford and back.
It works well on the way out; it’s a good walk but it’s pretty quiet (at the moment) and the higher frequency on the NLL route means there’s not much waiting around.
The reverse journey feels slightly more laborious. This is partly down to the lower frequency on the West Anglia line but mainly due to the need to cross platforms at Hackney Central – the stairs, bridge and platforms aren’t particularly wide and can be very busy (also being used by passengers exiting the station). It also pushes the distance (and sets of stairs navigated – 5!) over my personal tolerance.
The link really needs a direct route from the westbound NLL platform as per the circa. 1900 photo at the start of the article. If it proves a popular route the extra congestion at Hackney Central could make this necessary (assuming it’s actually possible).
Also worth mentioning that on one of my return journeys I had my oyster checked twice – once where the link joins platform 1 at Hackney Downs, then again in the station underpass.
I had a TfL email today headed ‘Walthamstow Central Station’. I thought ‘good, here’s some info on the closure’. But no, the improvements works are apparently taking place in order to close the ticket office! No word whatsoever about the trivial issue of a total absence of a Tube service.
@ Greg – the TfL info page has been updated again for the blockade. More station specific info but the impacts on NR services is unchanged. Extra peak buses on the 97 and 158 seems to be the significant extra bit of info apart from confirming stop locations. The info for Tottenham Hale doesn’t even say where the RRS to Seven Sisters runs from! – TfL want people to use the 41, 76 and W4 instead. While I sort of understand that logic it’s not going to be terribly helpful if those services are delayed for some reason and people need to get to Seven Sisters.
TFL journey planner now takes account of Clapton’s closure, but not St James Street being exit-only.
I passed through Walthamstow Central this morning and saw a poster there confirming the service changes to the Overground.It even mentioned the occasional nonstop trains from Liverpool Street to Chingford.
Hugh S
I assume you mean not-stopping @ Clapton?
There has never been a time when passenger-carrying trains ran through what is now WHC without stopping.
??
What I was trying to say is that there now posters at Walthamstow Central confirming what we already know about London Overground and other changes during the blockade.
I shall go back to using Snaresbrook which is a 20 minute walk in the wrong direction for me as I want to go west to Hammersmith.The saving grace for me though is that I have two options at Mile End with both the District and the Hammersmith and City.
Meanwhile during the tube strike this week I shall be using the Hackney Downs to Hackney Central link for the first time.
Now completely back on topic!
I had a little exchange of emails with National Rail Enquiries. It took two goes for them to realise that more than just the Victoria Line was affected by the August blockade. I see that they are now showing no departures towards Liverpool Street for both Clapton and St James St in the morning peak.
@ Fandroid – if it seemingly takes your personal intervention and effort to get NRE info correct I have to wonder what the heck is or, more likely, isn’t happening via normal channels between TfL, LOROL, LU and NRE and other relevant bits of the National Rail set up. We’re 3 days away from the blockade starting – sheesh! On a slightly more positive note signs for the 558 temporary bus have appeared at relevant bus stops at Blackhorse Rd and near T Hale station.
Ive been sat here smugly thinking i can use St James Street instead of Blackhorse Road to get myself to the city during the Victoria Line works and have seen nothing to contradict this advice. Is it also the case that the Chingford branch is under the (enginer’s) hammer at exactly the same time?!
@Jeffy. No. But service modifications (due to expected extra passengers). See here and subsequent comments.
@ jeffy – you need to “unsmugly” familiarise with the wide ranging changes to services including the Overground at St James St. No M-F AM peak access to trains in either direction at St James St Station. You’ll be lumbered with Rail Replacement Service A or temporary bus route 558 at Blackhorse Road to Seven Sisters Station. Alternatively Rail Replacement Service B from Markhouse Road, just south of the roundabout, will whisk you to Stratford. This is a M-F only service. Extra peak buses are also being scheduled on the 97 and 158 to / from Stratford. The emphasis from TfL seems to be to get people to route via Stratford even though this can take an interminable time via normal buses. I expect RRS B will be quicker as I think it will run via Orient Way into the Olympic Park.
https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/victoria-line-travel-advice
@jeffy/WW
There is another line at Blackhorse Road of course – is a short walk (200m) between Wanstead Park and Forest Gate out of the question?
Or South Tottenham to Seven Sisters
Or maybe between the two Harringay stations, to get to Moorgate
@ Jeffy depends how late you are travelling as Chingford Branch from Hackney Downs has replacement buses for late evening engineering works see below from TFL site service update –
LONDON OVERGROUND: Monday 3, Tuesday 4, Wednesday 5 and Thursday 6 August, after 2230 each night, no service between Hackney Downs and Chingford due to Network Rail track works. Last through trains operate at 2233 from Liverpool Street to Chingford, and at 2240 from Chingford to Liverpool Street. Replacement buses operate between Hackney Downs and Chingford
Replacement buses operate Service L3: Hackney Downs – Clapton – St James’s Street – Walthamstow Central – Wood Street – Highams Park – Chingford.
@ Timbeau – I would not expect to be able to get on any GOBLIN train in the rush hour at BHR. I also expect it would be extremely overcrowded in the off peak as people will try to use it to South Tottenham and then have an “easy” link to the tube. Given w/b trains in the AM peak are full to bursting at Blackhorse Road but typically empty out somewhat nearly all those people won’t be alighting so pity the poor souls who do routinely commute from BHR towards Gospel Oak as they won’t be able to board their usual trains. They’ll probably have to get a RRS bus to Seven Sisters, walk to S Tottenham and then try to catch a train from there – bonkers but there you are!
@ Melvyn – not relevant I’m afraid as those evening shut downs on the Chingford line are this week and don’t happen during the Vic Line blockade period which is what Jeffy is commenting on. Network Rail have standard repeat possessions on M-Th late evenings on the Chingford Line – they cycle round every month or so. I imagine the planning for the blockade took that into account so there was no overlap as not providing a late night train service would be unacceptable on what will be the main link into town for three weeks.
Wanstead Park – Forest Gate is a useful change I’m very familair with though is less ideal in this situation as it takes me a fair way east. As suggested Blackhorse Road – South Tottenham – Seven Sisters will be spoilt by the sheer numbers no longer able to change at BHR, who will stay on presumably.
Indeed, I’m very unsmug now. Thank you for the links all. I shall digest. As someone who takes the train to work, to then take others by train to work, I’m hoping that at least I may be able to travel early enough on a preferred route via South Tottenham before chaos ensues.
@WW
“I would not expect to be able to get on any GOBLIN train in the rush hour at BHR. ”
Point taken – I realise today was not typical but I happened to be passing through Gospel Oak today on my way to Kings Cross from Kingston (via Richmond and Cally Road & B) and was amazed at how many people could actually emerge from a class 172 diesel!
*(I know Thameslink runs from Wimbledon to St Pancras, but having Wimbledon-bound trains call at Kingston would apparently have been too much trouble for SWT this morning)
@timbeau
You’d have been even more amazed if you’d seen how many people had already got off the same train at Upper Holloway!
timbeau / Glenn
A couple of years back I counted over 300% loading ( i.e. 180+) people in one coach of a 172 …….
They should do the same kind of link between Enfield Town-Enfield Chase, Archway-Upper Holloway, Wansted Park-Forest Gate, Sudbury Hill-Sudbury Hill Harrow
@Anonymous
“They should do the same kind of link …….”
None of those would be easy, as the lines do not cross nearby. And unlike the Hackney link they would save little time compared with the street level OSI.
Enfield in particular would require a half mile link through the town centre (and for what – so passengers from Hertford loop stations can get to Liverpool Street (which they can do already via Moorgate and a shorter walk)?
Archway/Upper Holloway would involve an awful lot of digging (Swiss Cottage/South Hampstead has been suggested in a similar context).
@ Anon – what on earth would be the point when it’s perfectly feasible to walk between those stations? In Enfield you can actually get a bus (231) door to door with the 307 not quite stopping at Chase’s front door.
Being “locked inside” a metal cage or tunnel for a considerable distance may not be terribly attractive to a lot of people. Most of the time being on the street and being visible to others is far safer. None of the interchanges you list are in “dangerous” areas where street crime is a disproportionate risk.
I actually pointed out the existence of the new link to some people at Walthamstow Central yesterday. They were rather impressed that it was open as they’d seen it being built and were planning to change trains there anyway given the Vic Line was closed.
Anonymous 10 August 2015 at 09:17
“Wanstead Park-Forest Gate” is a direct walk and you can see each station as you emerge from the other.
I had the misfortune to have to use the Chingford line yesterday, returning from a trip to Hampshire (which I had to make a day early, as with no peak hour service, I didn’t see how I could have got from Clapton to Southampton for a noon appointment without major hassle).
The 1618 LST to Chingford service was pretty busy – standing room only, but not jammed – with an annoying alarm going off in the rear carriage, which resulted in the train being taken out of service just as it was about to depart.
As a result the 1633 was even busier than it would have been, and felt like the central line in the morning peak. Surprisingly few people got off at Clapton, which is usually very popular, so I suspect it was mostly people bound for Walthamstow who would normally be using the Victoria line. Usually, the line is tolerable as late as the 1718.
Yeesterday’s was the worst I remember in over 20 years of living in Clapton. Today I see there have been several issues at Hackney Downs resulting in long delays.
It’s going to be a particularly fraught three weeks, I fear. Glad I mostly work from home.
One of my friends lives near Hackney Central, but takes a train from Hackney Downs most days to work. Since the bridge opened she’s been entering via Hackney Central to use the link and make the journey shorter, but the staff have been difficult with her, and have now told her that it isn’t permitted and she could be fined.
Does this strike anyone as ludicrous? Especially as there’s a sign OUTSIDE the station pointing Hackney Central and Hackney Downs via Footbridge?
@Lee
Seems peculiar. What ticket is she on? If it’s an Oyster or Travelcard neither the machines not the Revenue Men would know where she’s going. If it’s a point to point (Hackney Downs to Liverpool Street, Seven Sisters or wherever) it suggests the ticket gates have not been modified to recognise that Hackney is now one big station.
How could she be fined anyway? Assuming she has a ticket valid for the train she is travelling on, it should be irrelevant which entrance to the complex she uses.
There is an issue when two stations are separately gated – walking through Blackfriars TL from the south bank to the Tube, or through Southwark Tube station to get to Waterloo East, can be problematic, but as I understand it there are no gates between Downs and Central.
Is she getting hassle only on entering the station, or does she get the same problem on leaving?
If TfL have gone to the trouble of putting up a sign saying you can get to Downs station that way, I think that is prima facie evidence that the Revenue Men are making it up as they go along, and need the new arrangements explaining to them.
(PS is Hackney Central to Liverpool Street (or Tottenham Hale) via Stratford a valid route with a point to point season?
timbeau
AND there are pink readers en route, along the walkway.
Answer to your P.S. – is that I think it is no, except when services are “Down” & alternative routes apply.
@ Lee – I suggest your friend complains to TfL (Mike Stubbs, TfL’s Overground Director) and to LOROL. The “revenue” people, no doubt they are security staff in disguise, clearly have no clue. Their actions are beyond ludicrous IMO.
Hackney Central / Downs is now effectively one complex so far as the public are concerned and if, as you say, there are clear signs pointing to both stations being accessible from one entrance then that just reinforces the point that your friend is in the right. It’s issues like this that do the rail industry no good at all where clueless staff, who’ve either not been trained or have been but don’t understand what they were told, create needless grief for the paying public. Perhaps I should venture along with my Oyster Card and see what happens? Perhaps I can fill in the apparent gaps in their Oyster knowledge?
WW says “who’ve either not been trained or have been but don’t understand what they were told”
I would add a third possibility “or who have been trained but their trainers had it wrong”. This seems quite plausible to me, as apparently they are all telling the same story (which many of us believe is the wrong story).
Malcom
You forget the distinct possibility of them being “jobsworths” who delight in harassing members of the public.
I’m sure we can all remember the ridiculous hassle given to anyone on a railway station who was seen holding a camera, not so many years ago …..
I did indeed forget the possibility that the staff might be giving wrong information purely for their own pleasure. I also excluded the possibility that they may have been Martians in disguise, or visitors from the planet Zog. All three are, to my mind, equally unlikely.
[Please note the word “purely” in the above. I admit that staff telling passengers not to do something might at times get some side-effect pleasure out of so doing, but not that they would deliberately misinform for that purpose].
I too have been asked not to take photographs in a station, including quite recently. The impression I got was that the person in question was making a sincere and reasonably polite attempt to enforce a rule which he mistakenly believed to exist, probably because he had been so informed by his manager. Of course it should not happen, but when it does, I prefer to emit a sorrowful sigh, preserving my own blood pressure, and waiting for him to go away.
[Section in square brackets added at 22:51]
Is the lady in question use a point to point season ticket? if so, it may be that the gates at HC haven’t been re-programmed to recognise HD tickets. The staff therefore wrongly assume the ticket isn’t valid at that station.
(I have a similar issue at some of the intermediate stations on the line of route of my P2P ticket)
Thanks for the comments – I’m Lee’s friend, this is the situation:
I buy my ticket at the machine outside Hackney Central, it’s for Hackney Downs to Hertford East but the ticket won’t let me through the gate at central, and won’t let me out of Hackney Central when I come from Hackney Downs. I want to enter and exit via Hackney Central because it’s closer to where I live. The only way I can do it is by asking the staff to let me through the gate, which they did at first (grudgingly) but now they won’t.
Even more bizarre, the ticket is actually issued at one of HC’s machines, but won’t let you through the gates there!
If you bought a ticket at HD (or at Hertford East for that matter) would that work the gates at HC?
Are these season tickets or one-trip?
Politely point out to the staff that the signs are directing you that way, and ask to speak to the station manager (or managers if they are separately managed). You can also try taking it up with Abellio Anglia (as it is their train that you are using, and presumably to them that your fare is paid), as well as with TfL, and if you get no joy take it up with London Travelwatch. I think it’s a programming issue with the ticket gates, which haven’t been updated properly to take account of the merger of the stations.
Or you could go to Hertford North! Curiously, a single trip is (usually) cheaper to/from Hertford North but a return is cheaper to Hertford East.
@ timbeau / Jo – I agree this looks like a case of the ticket checking logic in the gates not keeping pace with the reality of what is effectively a merged station because of the link bridge. As LOROL run both stations now they are responsible for the operation of the gates *and* the staff. This is a completely ridiculous inconvenience you are being put to especially as the signage specifically directs you that way. It is also the case that for some pricing purposes ATOC use “Hackney Stations” which groups together Hackney Downs and Hackney Central as one complex.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/group_stations.pdf
I really think the actions of the staff are completely wrong. You should complain.
@Jo – Following on from WW’s comment and with the proviso that I know little about the situation on the ground, you may be interested to read this 27 July 2015 link (note esp. the final paragraph I quote and then complain):
http://www.wharf.co.uk/news/business/hackney-overground-interchange-helps-commuters-9734705
which stresses “Hackney Overground interchange helps commuters save cash” – TfL installs walkway for passengers at Hackney Downs and Hackney Central to access services on the orange line without venturing into Zone 1 …. Funded by Transport for London (TfL), it means passengers at Hackney Central can now easily access trains to north London or Liverpool Street from Hackney Downs, while those at Hackney Downs have fresh options to travel eastbound to Stratford.
Previously passengers had to travel into Zone 1, incurring a higher cost for their journey, or walk 600m.
TfL’s director of London Overground Mike Stubbs said: “The new link, fitted with lifts, makes the network more accessible and opens up new, easier journeys for our customers who live in, or travel through, Hackney.”
That bit about “…easier journeys for our customers who live in, or travel through, Hackney” to me clearly includes you.
timbeau
“The boss” uses a p-2-p WHC – LHS Annual Season ….
She has never had any problems entering or exiting at any of the intermediate stations, including London Fields or Cambridge Heath.
I/we will be very interested when, one day, she tries to exit at Hackney Central ( for “The Cock” f’rinstance ) & gets refused!
Jo & GF
The other weird thing about this is that there are “Pink Readers” at more than one point along the walkway, to enable people to verify their non-zone-1-routing.
Also, may I strongly suggest following timbeau’s advice about “taking it up”, with one small alteration?
Write one (very carefully worded) e-mail & then send it, simultaneously, not separately, to all of those bodies listed by timbeau … to which I may add, your MP, your local councillor(s) & the local press – & make sure that they can all see the other recipients in the email “letterhead/cc” list.
If they all know that all the others have got a copy, you might be surprised at how much it cuts down on the fake excuses & weaselling responses you would otherwise get.
If really desperate, one day on your return journey, just walk along the connecting link, make sure you tap the pink readers, then, when the staff ( at Hackney Central ) refuse to let you out, call BTP & suggest “False Imprisonment” or something similar.
Or, if they try to call BTP, because they claim you don’t have a valid ticket, let them.
I suspect the resulting, extremely bad publicity for TfL/Overground would be exactly the sort of thing they could do without.
Agree with everyone else.
I think this is a classic of a situation someone overlooked when considering the bigger picture. It is amazing how often something that is obvious to the outsider and probably the first thing they think of is the last thing the insider things of.
Please do complain and if you have no joy then go to London Travelwatch, as previously suggested, who love to get their teeth into this sort of thing. However they will only intervene when it is clear you have taken it up with the relevant organisation (TfL, LOROL it doesn’t matter) and the response is unsatisfactory. It is a lot easier if you do everything by email because London Travelwatch will want you to forward correspondence electronically and scan letters as attachments.
Also if you have documentary evidence and you don’t get anywhere you could approach the GLA Transport Committee. This is just the sort thing that a TfL representative being grilled by the committee would hate to be at the receiving end of.
Having said all the above, I am sure this is just an oversight and it the proper people are informed then staff will be made aware of the situation until it is fixed.
Have now read Greg’s response.
Actually in this case I would caution against getting too many people involved at the start. Give the relevant organisation the opportunity to sort it out. If they don’t then escalate it pointing out that that you were ignored/rebuffed etc and you followed proper procedures. I have seen case where individuals have adopted a scattergun approach and it can then get messy and awkward and people focus attention to deflecting blame rather than solving the problem. MPs would rather take on cases as a last resort where the feeling is that it needs them to sort out than feel they are being your personal assistant sorting out, what seems to them, your minor issues that you should have been able to handle yourself.
PoP
You have a valid point, but …..
I have been forced, myself, to do this sort of thing once or twice & have found out the hard way, that copying everyone in helps in cutting-down (at the least) on the fake excuses & “we were only obeying orders” nonsense that often ensues.
May I suggest a middle way & employ a “horses for courses” approach & see what transpires?
Oh – & to Jo – PLEASE tell us of any progress or otherwise!
I am reliably informed that LOROL at a high level have been made aware of the ticket issue at Hackney. So I suggest we give the subject a rest and see what transpires.
@Greg
“She has never had any problems entering or exiting at any of the intermediate stations, ”
There are two different routes between the end points of my P2P season. There are direct trains by both routes, and the season is valid by both routes. The problem occurs because the gates at intermediate stations on the longer of the two routes don’t recognise it.
Used the link for the first time today.
All the money spent on the design and somebody obviously realised late in the project that they might need to close the link at certain times and gates would be needed.
Shame about the trip hazards with the bottom rails above ground.