After what can only be described as a painful gestation, the first of London Overground’s new Class 710s have now entered service.
Two units are now running in full passenger service, with the first leaving Gospel Oak at 11:36 on the 23rd of May. Below is a selection of photos taken during this first run.
Did they give you special access to the train at Gospel Oak to get the “empty carriage” shots?
And very nice it looks too.
Perhaps “full carriage view” should really be “empty carriage view”!
Rode one today. Aircon certainly very good – much better than the 378 I switched to at Gospel Oak. Seats seemed firmer than the 378, but I seem to recall those on the 378s were pretty firm when new.
How long will it be before the USB sockets have been stuffed with rubbish or broken off inside I wonder
I managed to pick one up today. The aircon is certainly very good. The free Wifi worked well too. There was a general feeling, I thought, that people liked the new trains.
I quite liked the bigger windows, you could really enjoyed the sights!
Interesting how that two-line route map has a symbol for “Step-free from Train to Street” – which is entirely missing from actual *use* on either route (and five stations on GOBlin not having any form of step-free access.) Given how long the construction took this is a great pity.
Now we need a USB and WIFI revolution on London Buses. Just like the buses “up north”
How much extra does the wifi and usb charging ports cost add to the running costs of these trains? Shouldn’t TfL just be concentrating on getting trains that work (which is harder than it should be) rather than adding optional extras?
Chris. Expectations move on. Even the most basic new car on the market now includes USB sockets as standard. Public transport shouldn’t be the hair shirt option.
USB sockets are easy and might be useful for a decade or so. Wifi is harder to provide, especially to support hundreds of users per train. And only likely to be useful for a short while, at least if talk about 5G can be believed.
Very nice looking trains; the higher windows are definitely a plus. Interesting that they don’t appear to bother with emergency key operated drop-light vents anymore. I wonder if there are new emergency scenario procedures to compensate. It would only take a simple onboard or external power supply failure on a sunny day or when crowded…
‘Interesting’ that it’s all USB A/B but not C. The adapters will be with us for some time yet.
The additional cost of WiFi and usb (especially the latter) will be negligible.
wifi just does not seem necessary to me – it’s not as if the trains will be used in rural areas with poor mobile reception, or even underground. But I admit that I do have some old-fogeyish tendencies
The Goblin trains may not be running in rural areas or areas with poor mobile reception, but this is Bombardiers Aventra platform and there are many other orders for similar trains, and wifi & USB are both part of this platform, possibly even included as standard. If it is available, why not have it.
Mobile reception is likely to be quite poor on some sections of Crossrail, and the trains built for that line are based on the same Aventra platform.
In any case, as someone who often manages to exceed their mobile data allowance, wifi would be welcome (although one should always be suspicious of anything that appears to be free – as the saying goes, it means you are the product: that’s why the make you register to use the service)
I winced at the idea of giving the selfish another reason not to make way for the Priority Seats. Hopefully they will agree they can “Stand & Charge”.
I do fear the ports will become obsolete but so many hotels have invested in these same ports, I would like to think they’ll be around for a long time. Plus could likely be updated in the future with minimal fuss.
5G coverage will take a long time to happen. Many more masts needed than previous generations, so WiFi is welcomed as long as it’s not a faff to use with splash screens every time etc.
How long will it take for those displays to burn in?
I could be wrong, but I think “burning in” applies to CRT displays, which these are almost certainly not.
Burning impacts CRT and Plasma. These will be LCD screens.
However a visually similar issue known as LCD Persistence can strike a static image such as the one in the photo. It’s avoidable if the screens have “pixel shifting” that moves the image imperceptibly, but they should check the feature is turned on 🙂
Unlike burning, LCD Persistence can be reversed with a burst of static for a few hours to nudge the crystals back into compliance.
Is the guy in the hoodie an actual paying passenger, or did they recruit someone that looks like a typical “yoof” to demonstrate the USB ports 🙂
Don’t “Yoofs” all have hideous beards and/or man-buns now? Or is that only for the middle class Yoofs?
@TIMBEAU
“although one should always be suspicious of anything that appears to be free – as the saying goes, it means you are the product: that’s why the make you register to use the service”
When I connected, you have to confirm to terms and conditions first, but no registration is required. I captured it and you can see that here (first image)
https://twitter.com/Briantist/status/1131557288513277953
The X26 has USB ports.
The 378s used to have great air-con too – until they changed the temperature settings so that it’s barely noticeable now. I find 378s too warm and muggy for comfort during the summer, which is a shame. I wonder if its a ‘TfL thing’ as the air-con on the S-Stocks isn’t exactly cool anymore either.
I travelled on a 710 train from Barking to Gospel Oak on the first day in service, and, surprisingly, the air-con was gloriously cool on such a warm sunny day. However I was alarmed that I could overhear some other passengers nearby commenting about how cool it was – and not in a generally positive manner, which was disappointing. So I guess us cold air-con fans should enjoy the 710 air-con while it lasts, for I fear that in a short period of time it will meet the same fate as the 378s and S-Stock and be adjusted so that it’s barely noticeable in future.
Jason, I was also on both 378 and 710 on the first day. I thought 378 air conditioning was unobtrusive and that on 710 was far too cold with uneven air distribution. Clearly one person’s “just about right” might be too hot or too cold for others.
All I can say is that If I hadn’t got off the 710 at Blackhorse Road, I’d have put on my overcoat!
@130
My experience too, although I was changing the other way. 710 a little on the chilly side, 378 rather muggy (although dashing through the subway at Gospel Oak meant I was a bit hot and bothered when I boarded the latter! – it’s a lot of steps, isn’t it!)
i would have hoped that by now, air conditioning would have been ‘set’ automatically to be a few degrees cooler than outside in summer and few degrees warmer than outside in winter. As well as being less extreme, this would probably use less energy. Of course, there is no system, neither theoretical nor actual, which will please all of the people all of the time.
Do the large windows let in more heat as well as more light or are they treated to reduce this?
Are they now furiously training drivers so that they can get more trains into service?
Taking of “new” services … the mystery of the disappearing trains on the lower Lea Valley has been resolved.
At Tottenham Hale last week, I noted that the rails on the extra line to Meridian Water seemed somewhat rusty … and a close examination of “GA”s timetable shows that the extra trains will not now start until the 9th of September.
Presumably last-minute adjustements & work still needs to be done.
“Overgrounded ” @ 19.58: you’ll be pleased to know that all new buses from now will have USB ports fitted.
@ Jason – having been in charge of an office that had a not exactly brilliant air con system I can say with confidence that it is simply impossible to set cooling (or heating) systems at a temperature that will please everyone. It’s a fool’s errand even trying to do so. Someone will always complain.
@ Greg – the date for trains on the STAR third track has been 9th September for quite a long time now. Not exactly recent slippage. The decision was clearly taken a fair while ago. I’d not be surprised if it hasn’t got something to do with the works, esp the new footbridge and lifts, at Tottenham Hale needing to make more progress before the extra platform can be brought into use. Congestion at T Hale is pretty horrible so the new bridge and lifts probably need to be in service before STAR trains can commence but that’s purely my speculation.
WW
Thanks for that
A revised/improved & freer-flowing layout there is certainly needed, especially since “they” decided two separate gate-lines were “needed”. Which they weren’t of course, but we got them, anyway!
A lot of older (new)buses still running. May take a while before we see more USBs on the ground.
The electric BYD buses on route 46 also have USB ports at (most) seats – unlike their brethren on routes 507/521.
The problems with the 710s have had nothing to do with USB ports or WiFi and plenty to do with the fact, that the train is almost entirely software driven, with fixes made to one bit typically affecting 10 other things. I think it took them over 30 versions of the operating system for the train just to get it fit for driver training.
Straphan
What happens if someone shorts out a really big capacitor or capacitor-bank, inside or close to one of those trains, I wonder?
Wifi in trains is usually part of the passenger information system. These systems are generally the TOC’s responsibility (and the TOC contracts a mobile network operator to provide a data connection for the wifi users), and as such separated from the board computer used to drive the train.
It’s the board computer we are talking about. You don’t need a functional passenger information system to get approval from ORR, nor does a train need to be taken out of service when its passenger information system (and wifi) fails during the day.
Regarding STAR, can I just congratulate GA and NR on joined up thinking? NR have built the line with 8-car (160m) platforms, whereas the new GA franchise is set to introduce 5-car Aventras .
(Insert slow clap here)
@Straphan
Maybe future-proofing against the service being taken over by LO? (which will have 4/8 car Aventras)
Re Straphan,
And GA Aventras have 24m car length so 5car is equivalent to 6 current cars. The plans were of course set in motion before Abellio won the current franchise.
In general Abellio’s bid team decided to use their own cost numbers for platform extensions need (presumably the same lot who costed Brantham non depot) as they didn’t like NR’s estimates. It turns out NR estimates were good and Abellio are now planning to get NR to organise the work.
PS the overlap at P11 at Stratford is problematic for long trains hence the current limit is effectively 1 unit
@Albert JP
The Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations charge the ORR with their enforcement, so they do need to give approval of a train’s Passenger Information System (indeed, there was a point when the class 458’s slightly non-compliant system nearly saw the fleet taken out of service – an exemption was subsequently granted).
What looks weird to me is the relationship between door and seats. The seats are all longitudinal – presumably so that more standing passengers can squeeze in? But if they expect such high loads, why only 2 doors per carriage? Won’t that lead to long dwell times?
All-longitudonal seats is TfL’s current fashion.
You can get v large numbers of standees in trains with 2+2 conventional seating – look at the class 376 as a perfect example.
But the paying customers are going to get longitudonal seating [Snip! LBM]
Oops, hit “send” too soon …
This is how to do it – interior shot of a “376”
@Christian Schmidt: these are still 20m carriages, and the doors are far wider than existing stock (including Class 378s). With doors easily fitting two people and a lack of obstacles inside the train dwell times should be fine. They will definitely be an improvement compared to Class 315s and 317s – whose replacement is the main objective of procuring the 710s.
@ngh: The overlap at Stratford is a known problem, but – again – not for 8-car (160m) trains. Given the number of flats being built between Tottenham Hale and Meridian Water; and given the effective doubling of capacity at Tottenham Hotspur (a short walk from Northumberland Park station), STAR will need every metre of train it can get!
Wrt WiFi, Timbeau touched on it earlier, but not everyone can afford endless data on a mobile tariff, if they are lucky enough to not be on payg. WiFi remains extremely useful for those with budgets, probably even more so if the Goblin goes through some areas with depravation.
Unquestionably that is not the reason it is provided, but it’s still a point.
@Greg T: Actually no, that’s not how to do it…
If the train gets to “heaving” level there aren’t enough places to hold on especially not where there are the 4 seats facing each other.
Also the location of the poles etc. around the door ways makes it an absolute nightmare to get out from the point of “moderate” load. Firstly the poles are in the way and secondly no-one wants to go away from the doors because of the lack of hand holds away from the doors, so they get in the way.
@straphan – thanks I didn’t realise the doors are wider
@ Southern Heights (Light Railway) – I’d agree that the 376 don’t look good for standing, especially gripping those yellow knobs on the seat back looks difficult for more than one person. But I can’t see how the 710 are any better, there’s a very wide space in the middle with by the look of it two poles in 20m and a few at the seats that force standing passengers to loom over seated passengers and tussle with them for foot space…
@Christian Schmidt: The other option on the 376’s is to hold on to the luggage racks. However that sometimes affords views that are perhaps not appreciated as one needs to lean over the seated passengers.
The horizontal bars with straps are actually much better on the 710’s as they are above the standing area plus as many people as can fit (and reach) can grab them…
When the trains for what became Overground were first being specified and soundings were taken about what might be offered, a modified class 376 was mentioned. I can’t speak for its effectiveness as a people mover, but its seats are an utter disgrace – ugly and uncomfortable – and the interior appearance looks appalling – yellow painted scaffolding comes to mind. This was a shared view within TfL and it led to a design competition being run. There was also high level favour for all longitudinal (the decision to make S stock S7 sets all longitudinal having just been taken). The class 378 interior is pretty faithful to the winner of the design competition, except where there were limitations of the Electrostar architecture. As an example, look at the arrangement of the central vertical poles which cannot go though the longitudinal centre line of the ceiling.
As for capacity, I can’t find figures for the 376 and 378 seating capacities, but from experience of S7 stock the loss of seats in changing from part transverse/part longitudinal to all longitudinal was small.
Personally, I was hugely impressed with the class 710 interior except I kept brushing my head against the dangly straps.
So far it appears that only 710s 261, 262 & 269 are cleared for passenger traffic, as only these have been reported in service. Training trips have continued (some have been cancelled this week due to a lack of available drivers), as have test runs including which includes sets 105 & 107 which have turned up at Willesden. TCMS software is now up to version 34.1.
The 376s don’t use space that well, in that the airline seating has excessive legroom. I’m tall and have masses of space in front of my knees, which seems a bit wasteful. The seats are bizarrely high backed as well.
With the longitudinal seating, you lose the luggage racks though these seem to be hardly used on short journeys anyway.
There’s something bizarre about a transport system where an operational line has “a lack of available drivers” and Crossrail has 479 who are less that fully utilised.
I fully realise that drivers have to be qualified on both trains and the routes, and it would take months (if not years) to cross skill ( so no imputation on any drivers)
Does show up that UK designs & buys trains in limited quantities that are sufficiently different that there are limited economies of scale, and a lot of unproductive effort has to go into different training systems. Or perhaps we just don’t have a larger enough pool of drivers?
I was on 710 261 yesterday, favourably impressed. However I also thought was that it was a little on the cold side .
@100ANDTHIRTY – I’d agree the interior appearance of the 376s is poor and that of the 710s much much better!
I just would have preferred 1/2 dozen more vertical poles – and there seems to be enough space, so why not?
Much of the existing handrails seems to be difficult to use for smaller people and people with poor balance (straps). Fine for me, but my kids, my partner and my parents would struggle. Was there an EQIA for standees?
Took myself on a railtour today of the new Thameslink, Crossrail, and Goblin trains. All look great – from the outside – but first two have uncomfortable seats (and not enough knee room) and the latter was doing a great impression of a blast freezer. I did notice a passenger making use of the charging facility but otherwise there seemed only cosmetic changes to the previous vehicles (from a traveller’s pov).