It will likely come as a surprise to no-one that the residents of LR Towers are inveterate browsers of second-hand bookshops. Occasionally these dusty forays yield more than obscure texts. Such is the case here, where a recent visit saw the discovery of a number of old bus photos tucked into an old timetable book.
The photos help highlight the sheer variety of vehicles that have been used to carry passengers on London’s streets since the first introduction of the bus. They represent only a fraction of the designs that have seen service, but are part of an evolving visual journey that continues to this day.
Unfortunately the photos were unmarked and without captions. We would thus be grateful if our more bus-inclined readers could identify the make and models in the comments. We will then update this post.
Come join us for drinks and transport chatter
It’s time for the LR monthly meetup, which happens today Thursday, 8th September in Soho. As always, these are informal affairs where the beer flows, offering an opportunity to put faces to the names of a few LR writers as well as regular commentors. All are welcome, and conversation is often as much general as it is transport-specific. Why not come along?
These pictures are a very interesting find. Alas, not being a bus expert, I cannot help you identify any of them. However, given that you are asking the commentors to help you with that, it is rather amusing that one of the buses just so happens to carry the words “Write to John Bull about it!”
Bottom photo is London United VA2 – an Alexander bodied Volvo Olympian double decker. Shock horror it might even be standing at Wimbledon Station.
KGK 529 is an 8-foot wide all-Leyland PD2, number RTW29 in the London Transport fleet from 1949 until 1964 (from Wiki).
FXH 462 is a L3 class Trolleybus 1462. At a guess it is photographed at Fulwell Depot which I believe was the last functioning trolleybus depot in London. (Happy to be corrected as I’m not great on LT history).
Details about KLB 915 are at
http://www.onlineweb.com/buses-coaches/london/RTW%20185.htm
Some other people can do the older types as they’re more likely to know what they’re talking about!
Starting at the end, VA2 is one of London United’s fleet of Volvo Olympians with Alexander bodywork (hence the VA type code). Some of the last step entrance double deckers in London. They operated the route between 1996 and 2001. It is at the (then) terminus of the route at Wimbledon (the route was extended to Tooting in 2007).
Is it a sign of the times that the building in the background, which appears to be sporting a BMW logo, is now an outlet of cycle specialists FW Evans?
The website “Ian’s Bus Stop” has comprehensive histories of all buses in London, and I would guess all the buses in the photos can be identified using his website (except the trolleybus, as his site doesn’t cover them), but I’ll let someone else have a go.
@WW
Fulwell was indeed London’s last trolleybus depot (it had also been the first), and the pioneer route, the 601, was one of seven routes which lingered on until the very last day. The replacement diesel bus route, the 281, still follows the circuitous route between Kingston and Twickenham dictated by the absence of trolley wires through Strawberry Hill, although during the recent closure of Petersham Road a direct service was available using the diverted 65 – a situation locals on the Middlesex side of the river would have liked to remain permanent.
A very curious assemblage – photos ranging from c1950 to nearly the present day and at a wide variety of locations.
Work in progress,with the easy one first: T755 (HGF 845), a 14T12, is at Kingston Garage and as it’s displaying a K garage plate, must be before 6 May 1953 when K’s allocation of Ts on the 218 was replaced, but after 1946 when the subclass was introduced. (A close study of the two vehicles in the background might enable me to narrow the time scale a bit). The vehicle was eventually withdrawn on 14 January 1959.
BTW and what about the timetable, so lightly dismissed?
Very odd -the vehicle behind T755 seems to be one of the second batch of TDs which were allocated to Kingston to replace – err – T755 on 6 May 1953…. It’s possible therefore that that is the actual date of the photo, although I have no info as to how long the Ts lingered on at K after their official transfer. Just visible is what appears to be the rear of a 4Q4 in country livery although what it was doing there is unclear.
“A close study of the two vehicles in the background might enable me to narrow the time scale a bit”
The one displaying a 215 blind appears to be another flavour of T type, which worked the 215 throughout that period. The very short rear overhang of the other one makes me think it’s a Q type, which were allocated to Kingston from 1950)
For those interested I can highly recommend Ian Smith’s Countrybus.org website, which provides detailed information on London’s buses from the 1920s (pre London Transport) to the modern day.
The photos show the following vehicles:
ST331 – AEC Regent ST chassis with London General body. New in October 1930 to LGOC, in July 1933 passed to LPTB on its formation. Converted to operate on producer gas 1943/4.
LTC11 – one of a batch of 24 private hire coaches delivered in 1937, ordered with three axles to provide a smoother ride. AEC LT chassis. During WWII requisitioned for use as a public ambulance.
LT1246 – known as ‘Bluebird’ LTs, these 273 tri-axle double deckers were delivered in 1932. Originally petrol engined, they were converted to diesel in 1933/4.
T755 – as post-war supply restrictions eased in 1946, LTPB was able to order 75 new single deck buses to replace some of those requisitioned. With an AEC Regal chassis, they lasted in service until 1959 when many of the class were sold to Ceylon for further use.
Q159 – AEC’s 1930s Q chassis was a radical departure from its predecessors, with the engine mounted on the offside behind the front wheel. This bus was one of two originally delivered in green to Hatfield in 1936 for working in the Country area, but was transferred to the Central area (repainted red) at some point in its life.
STL441 – in 1932, the maximum permitted length and weight of four wheel buses were increased to 26feet and 10 tons. The 1934 STL class took advantage of these changes, with some of the bodies having a more streamlined raked front. Withdrawn in 1953 and sold straight in to preservation, STL441 is now in the care of the London Bus Preservation Trust at their museum at Brooklands.
RTW185 – the 500 RTW buses were London’s first 8foot wide buses. Concerns from the Met Police about risk of collisions on narrow central London streets originally restricted the use in the suburbs, but successful demonstrations proved these risks unfounded and so they were allowed to permanently operate core services. Introduced in December 1949, RTW185 was privately preserved in 1971 and still attends rallies to this day.
L3 class trolleybus 1462 was one of the last vehicles in operation on
London’s once-extensive trolleybus network. Fulwell depot was the last, with routes swapping to diesel buses on 9th May 1962.
RTW29 – another RTW vehicle, again in private preservation but currently on loan to the London Bus Museum.
VA2 – stepping in to the 1990s, VA2 is a Volvo Olympian with Alexander bodywork. Ordered by London United in 1996, they operated from Fulwell depot on the 131 Kingston to Wimbledon Station. They were replaced in 2002 by new low-floor double deck buses, as part of the process to make all routes accessible.
@timbeau – although the 15T13s and the 2TD2s had similar body work, the giveaway sign of the latter is the rain strip under the front wind of the cab. In the Ts, it joined the strip under the side window in a smooth straight line; on the TDs, there was – as here – a distinct step between front and rear. The TDs swept away even the Ts on the 215 on the same day – allegedly – as the 218.
I am sceptical it is a Q – the 4Q4s (some of which were in country livery) had all been withdrawn by 4/53 and the 5Q5s didn’t come in two tone livery, which the vehicle in the picture clearly had. The CRs also had a short rear overhang and two survived on the Kingston/Leatherhead services until – May 1953. It’s therefore entirely possible that this is a “one day” shot with T, TD and CR together
As to trolleybus 1462, it is an L3 transferred from Finchley to Fulwell in the course of 1961, so the photo must date between January 1961 and May 1962 . The original intention had been for the Q1s to soldier on at Fulwell for some years (I seem to recall 1970 as being the drop dead date) but their sale to Spain led to a last minute reshuffle from the just-closed Finchley routes. The 601 was, of course, one of the original LU trolley routes worked by Diddlers for many years
@Graham
You’re probably right. Were there any red CRs, or is this a Country area interloper?
@timbeau – I don’t think there were any red CRs as such but K’s allocation seems to have included a couple of unrepainted examples. Was it a Q? Further research shows that K’s last 2 Qs departed in March 1953 and the nearest surviving one was at Staines – a Country Area garage and therefore unlikely to have loaned a bus to K (nor did ST work a route into K). So my money is – just – on a CR! [I did note that the TFs also had a short rear overhang but I think the RFs had seen them off of any remaining Greenline workings by May 1953 and K didn’t have a TF bus allocation].
@NeilD – Q159 was a red 5Q5 from no later than 1949. These were allocated to the 208 between 1936 and … 5 May 1953 (that date again!) from Dalston shed. The likely date is therefore between 1949 and May 1953. Not sure about the location – Clapton Pond perhaps?
@Graham H. Thanks, couldn’t tell when the transfer occurred.
There were red CRs, some of the first ones were delivered to Kingston in red for the 206 and 216, with other garages also receiving reds for appropriate routes. Summary histories of each are here: http://www.countrybus.org/CR/CR_a.html#fleet
@NeilD – sorry that I can’t (nor can Ian’s Bus Stop!) track down a date for Q159 becoming red – sometime during the War or shortly after perhaps.
Red CRs -yes, but only 5 survived after 1949, and at least two (the same source says, but in a different place, all five) of those were painted green and/but sent to K at that time, and of the others, CR1 was out of stock 23.02.49 anyway.
I’d still like to know more about that timetable book…
I agree that Q159 on the 208 is at Clapton Pond. You can just see the street sign for Mildenhall Road in the background.
A guess on my part is that LT1246 is at Gants Hill on Eastern Avenue heading east. The background scene today looks similar with the tall building behind the shallow tube stn building on Gants Hill roundabout. A somewhat different range of shops to the left but that building is still there with the window and roof design evident on Google Streetview.
So we’ve identified not only the buses, but most of the locations too!
The “General”, (as opposed to “London Transport”) branding on ST331 suggests it is less than three years old, and indeed it looks to be in as-new condition.
(Is that orange and white thing behind RTW 189 a Lodekka? It’s in a very unTillinglike colour scheme)
@timbeau It is an FLF Lodekka. It might be one of Topdeck’s, who had cream/orange/black as their livery and did have several FLFs in their fleet.
@NeilD – must confess to not knowing much about Topdeck – where did they operate?
ST 331 – judging by its condition, very likely photographed shortly after introduction, according to the LHRG books, if we take the photo at face value (the peeling advert makes a publicity shot unlikely), at this time (October 1930ish) the 35 operated between Clapham Common and Highams Park Station, it was operated by Camberwell and Leyton, the houses in the background are suggestive of the Clapham Common area.
Under Bassom, a garage journey to Leyton wouldn’t have required a suffix.
@NEilD/Graham H
Yes it looks very much like Topdeck. They were probably the biggest operator of second hand Lodekkas, using around 100 over the years from the early 70s to the late 90s. They operated (possibly still do) in Europe, India and the US, with the top deck converted to sleeping accommodation, primarily aimed at students. The one sneaking into the picture of RTW 185 has the Cave-Browne-Cave heating/ventilation system.
It definitely is a Top Deck Travel Lodekka. They were renowned at providing low cost international travel on old double deckers for the student travel market. I’ve got a photo somewhere of one of their Lodekkas in Amsterdam. I’ve seen them elsewhere in Europe too.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/24759744@N02/11455278126/
Found this on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxTwL1-UFPk. Topdeck now seems to have its HQ in Queensland so just possibly off topic. To return to the photos, the General name on ST331 does not necessarily mean that the bus is less than 3 years old (timbeau) as the LPTB did not resolve to introduce the London TransporT fleet name until April 1934 and even then it took some time for all the vehicles to be changed. Graham H is right about the minor bodywork difference between the 15T13s and 1/1TD2s but also the 15T13s were always painted green although from 1956/57, 12 were operated by Norbiton. Since the vehicle pictured carries Kingston garage plates and is red it must be a Leyland.
Mention has been made of Fulwell Trolleybus being the last to close, which is technically correct – however one other Depot was still putting trolleybuses out on the road on 8th May 1962.
This was Isleworth Depot, which was renamed from Hounslow and given the code IH in 1950 when the Tram and Trolleybus Department was merged with the Central Bus Department (which already had a Hounslow Garage). This was originally built as a Tram Depot by the London United Tramways Company, and only ever operated one route, the 57 tram which later became the 657 trolleybus, one of the last seven trolleybus routes closed in May 1962. Isleworth Depot closed at the same time and the staff transferred to Hounslow Garage.
The 657 was replaced by an extension of the 117 bus (Staines-Hounslow) to Shepherd’s Bush, but subsequent changes mean that the 657 is now covered by the 237 bus, which follows the same route with short extensions at each end.
@Littlejohn
How can you tell that it’s red? They all look grey to me!
You can usually tell by looking at the mudguards. Central buses had black mudguards but Country had green (body coloured) so if the mudguards look dark the bus is red; if they look the same as the body it is green. The pictures of the LT and LTC above T755 illustrate (literally) this well.
@timbeau/Littlejohn – the problem with black and white chromicity is that red and green (and other colours, too, even ochre) are sometimes registered as the same depending on the film used. Generally, I agree that black is, err, black but given that the base material is rubber and depending on the angle to the light, it can look dark grey, as can the darker shade of rubber green mudguards. And look at the picture of ST 331 – we know it has to be red, but compare it with contemporary photos of Chocolate Express or East Surrey and it would be hard to tell the difference.
@Graham H; yes, I did say generally and I was only comparing Central and Country areas. Looking back at the (sometimes imperfect) photos in my ABCs of the 50s and early 60s the system is not infallible but only rarely is it difficult to identify the livery. Route numbers should help of course but loans between the areas were by no means unknown.
@Littlejohn
The legal lettering on ST331 is for the London General Omnibus Co Ltd rather than the LPTB. Presumably that would have been updated more promptly, so this points to the photo being older rather than newer.
Has LTC 11 got a GM garage code?, both look as though they have running numbers, the LTC behind also has a ’14’ in the door, didn’t London Transport run scheduled excursions, and were these numbered?
Not sure about location.
@Anonymous – indeed the locale looks like GM. LT certainly ran scheduled excursions although I don’t know whether they had running numbers (knowing the mania for numbering, I would guess “yes”!)
@Graham H, Anonymous – Yep, the background on the photo of LTC 11 & 1 matches that on this LTM photo of GM – http://www.ltmcollection.org/photos/photo/link.html?IXinv=1998/66593#.
Interesting to note that LTC 1 has received glazed panels in the roof and LTC 11 hasn’t. Zooming in also reveals that LTC 11 has coach seats, whilst LTC 1 appears to have bus seats or similar (Ian’s Bus Stop does mention that lighter seats were fitted for use on service work post-war). No running numbers on either that I can tell and LTC 1 doesn’t seem to have a garage code either. LTC 1 also has some sort of notice stuck in the front window, sadly illegible.
So much alphabet soup here. let’s have a go at deciphering it.
K (depot code) – Kingston garage: not all depot codes were as obvious as this!
GM (depot code) – Victoria (Gillingham Street)
ST- London Transport’s code for the AEC Regent I – known as the Short Type
LT – London Transport’s code for the AEC Renown – known as the Long Type
LTC- single-deck coach variant of the LT
STL – London Transport’s code for the AEC Regent II – a Longer version of the ST (!)
RT – London Transport’s code for the AEC Regent III
RTL – London Transport’s code for the Leyland version of the RT
RTW – London Transport’s code for the Wider variant of the RTL
PD2 – Leyland’s classification for its standard post war model – Passenger, Double deck, of which the RTL and RTW were examples.
Lodekka – Bristol Omnibus’s revolutionary 1950s lowbridge design, achieved by running the propshaft down the side of the bus rather than under the middle of the floor. The FLF code designates Front engine, Low Floor, Forward entrance.
T – London Transport’s classification for the AEC Regal single decker – nearly 800 were built, over two decades (1929-1948), with body styles evolving with the times, the variants being identified by designations such as 13T14. I don’t think the “T” stood for anything in particular
TD – London Transport’s classification for the Leyland Tiger (PS1), contemporary with the T class
TF – London Transport’s code for Leyland Tiger with horizontal (Flat) engine
CR – London Transport’s code for Leyland Cub, rear-engined variant. As the name implies, it was a small class in dimensions as well as numerically.
Q type – one of AEC’s more outlandish designs, with a side-mounted engine behind the driver. The need for remote control of the gearbox in such a layout was a key factor in the development of the GWR’s pioneering double-cabbed diesel railcars.
RF – London Transport’s code for the AEC Regal IV, the standard single decker of the 1950s
VA – Volvo chassis, Alexander bodywork
L3 – Trolleybus types were simply allocated letters in an alphabetical sequence from A to Q, with minor variants identified by numbers.
LGOC – London General Omnibus Company – one of the private companies taken over in 1933 by the:
LPTB – London Passenger Transport Board
Meant to add – Bassom – Metropolitan Police Chief Constable who introduced a new numbering system for London’s bus routes in 1924. As discussed above in relation to Route 35, one of its features was that any short working had to have a suffix letter. Even if the longest variant of the route was very infrequent, such as extensions to and from depots at the ends of the traffic day, that was the one which got the plain suffix-free number.
The scheme was replaced in 1934 shortly after London Transport took over and number blocks no longer needed to be reserved for different operators. They were instead allocated to different types of vehicle (single deck, double deck, night, country area, trolleybus, Green Line), although where Bassom-era numbers were compatible with the new scheme they were kept unchanged.
My listing above reveals the bus manufacturers’ love of themed names for their products. AEC always had an initial “R” (Renown, Reliance, Regent, Regal) whilst Leyland single deckers always had wild cats (Tiger, Lion, Panther, Leopard, Lynx and Cub), and double deckers looked to Greek mythology (Titan, Atlantean, Olympian) The blue and white bus behind KGK529 is a Leyland Olympian with Alexander RH bodywork from c1990. Volvo took over Leyland’s bus plant in 1992 and continued production of the Olympian – VA2 in the last picture is an example.
London United already used the VA class code for the Optare Vecta used on the 371, these were re-classed as MV so the code could be used for the Olympians, London United then continued using the VA code for the low floor Volvo B7TL + Alexander ALX400.
@timbeau – I suspect that the T class was so called simply because the LGOC allocated its own class letters from about 1906 onwards (not necessarily in alphabetical order and only some of which matched a manufacturer’s name) and had just reached T as the next available letter.
A small extra note on the Bassom system – the suffix route numbers were allocated on a contingent basis even if there was never any such timetabled working. It was doubly unfortunate that the whole nonsense was introduced just at the time when large numbers of routes were extended temporarily to the Wembley Exhibition, so the full unsuffixed routes existed only for a few months, leaving the “normal” 11 as the 11F for example.
@Anonymous
Although I used them daily, I’d forgotten, if I ever noticed, that the MVs had originally been coded VA. They worked alongside the XL type (one of the earliest low floor types in London – they had the registrations P15x BUG: it took me a long time to realise why there was no XL5), and had replaced the also unique DWL long version of the Dennis Dart, with their distinctive Ballymena registrations.
My glossary above omitted to explain my reference to Tillings in connection with the Bristol Lodekka. Like Midland Red (BMMO) and the LGOC (AEC), the Bristol Omnibus Company built many of its own buses, the manufacturing arm becoming Bristol Commercial Vehicles Ltd.
Bristol became part of the Tilling Group in 1931 and its products were then supplied throughout the group. Around the same time the GWR and other railway companies sold their bus interests to Tillings and others, in exchange for shares in the bus companies. Consequently, on nationalisation of the assets of the railway companies in 1948, the government gained a controlling interest in Tillings. In order to protect the private manufacturers such as Leyland from state-sponsored competition, Bristol was not allowed to supply vehicles to any operator outside the Tilling Group throughout the 1950s and 1960s (and the nationalised Tilling Group rarely bought anything else) , until Bristol became part of Leyland in the late 1960s, only to be renationalised with the rest of Leyland in 1975.
That’s the rather complicated explanation for why Lodekkas rarely if ever saw public service in anything other than Tilling Group livery.
Bassom – it wasn’t just the Wembley Exhibition, as usual with anything involving bureaucracy, no allowance had been made for the summer Sunday & Bank Holiday extensions which had operated previous years, so come Easter 1925 there were a further set of renumberings to allocate the non-suffix number to the summer extension, the Mon-Sat service received a suffix number, in some cases the winter Sunday service had a different suffix number.
Again, looking at the LHRG books, some of the Bassom numbers are still with us, for example, 65 (formally the 105), 133 (an offshoot of the 34), 143 (had been the 43A) and 145 (the old 25D).
That 208 route has changed a bit! It says Bromley by Bow, which is a tad different to Lewisham, Bromley/Petts Wood/Orpington!
Ian Armstrong’s site shows most services had their numbers carried over from the Bassom system to the LPTB one, the lowest he records as having changed being the 34 (previously 604). Some routes go back long before Bassom – Ian has route 31 traced back to 1911.
I’ve found a list in the internet of how some of LGOC’s 1908 network remained a hundred years later. (As the list is itself now eight years old, some recent changes will not be included, and for some reason routes 5, 9 and 12 are not included at all) Indeed, the core sections of about half of the twelve Vanguard routes LGOC took over in 1908 can still be recognised from this list, including the five that were launched the system in 1906.
http://www.harringayonline.com/forum/topics/100-years-of-numbered-bus
1: Cricklewood – Elephant & Castle [northwest half cut, southeast half extended]
2: Child’s Hill – Ebury Bridge [has slid substantially south over the years]
3: Camden Town – Brixton [north end cut, south end extended]
4: Shepherd’s Bush – Herne Hill [withdrawn 1909]
6: Kensal Rise Station – Liverpool Street [City service withdrawn 1992]
7: Wormwood Scrubs – Liverpool Street [City service withdrawn 1970]
8: Shepherd’s Bush – Seven Kings [switched eastern end with route 25 in 1912]
9: (erm, not sure)
10: Leytonstone – Elephant & Castle [withdrawn 1988]
11: Liverpool Street – Barnes [cut back a bit, but still damned similar]
13: Shoreditch Church – Hammersmith [withdrawn 1909]
14: Stratford Broadway – Putney Station [Stratford end withdrawn 1911, Putney end remains]
15: Shepherd’s Bush – East Ham [withdrawn 1909]
16: Victoria Station – Cricklewood [still going strong]
17: Ealing – Plaistow [withdrawn 1958]
18: Leyton – Oxford Circus [withdrawn 1909]
19: Highbury Barn – Clapham Junction [tweaked at each end, still pretty much identical in the middle]
20: Hammersmith – Tulse Hill [withdrawn 1917]
@SHLR – it still survives, albeit renumbered S2 in 1970. The 208 was reused next for a local route in the Hayes area before becoming its present incarnation – possibly one of most reused route numbers on the system.
@Anonymous – astonishingly one of the Bassom style suffixes survived on Epsom Race Days – the 406f – until fairly recently (I suspect some antiquarianism on the part of the schedulers…) Then there was the famous 23c to Movers Lane (survived long after the parent 23 had vanished)
Why do people find it so hard to understand that there is no such physical object as “the” genuine Cornish Riviera Express (see Colin Dexter’s “The Jewel That Is Ours” for a typical example of such confusion) or the “real” Orient Express (over the years, many different vehicles operated the service, and indeed given the six-day round trip there could have been as many as six Orient Expresses trundling across Europe at any given time)? They seem to have no difficulty in understanding that the No 11 bus is no longer an open top solid rubber-tyred affair, or that flight BA001 still exists despite Concorde having been withdrawn from service.
Of course, the LNER managed to confuse the issue by naming a locomotive after one of its services.
@SHLR
The present 208 dates from 1980, when it and the 261 replaced the old No 94
@ Graham H – the S2 went years ago I’m afraid. You can now have a debate about which bits of it are covered by the 276, 488 and 425.
@ Timbeau – surely the Poplar – Trafalgar Sq section of the 15 still survives today or was it really very different? TfL are doing their very best to exterminate it from the network but a bit still hangs on. Rumours are rife that the 7 is also for the axe before 2018 courtesy of Crossrail
This debate about route longevity triggers a memory of a comment from a London Assembly Member who complained that “bus routes still go the same way as 100 years ago” as if constant reinvention and network turbulence was somehow the only basis to judge the efficacy of the bus service. “It’s no good unless we’re changing it every few months”. Makes me suspect they want change so they can go “oh I campaigned for that route to be created, I made that diversion happen, they renumbered that bus because I asked them to”. Meanwhile confused passengers stand on the pavement wondering how to get around. 😛
The fact routes are long standing perhaps tells you that the busmen from 100 years were pretty adroit at working out where people wanted to travel. Obviously development will have followed in the wake of these transport corridors being established thus reinforcing demand for them. The long established routes are some of the busiest in London – can’t think why?! 😉
The 15 is a bit like the 23 where the ‘new’ version covers much of the old version, again courtesy of the LHRG books, the 15 as Upton Park – Putney Common was withdrawn after 6th August 1916 (introduced 1st November 1908), the current route was introduced on 4th December 1916 as Upton Park – Ladbroke Grove, both versions were the same between Upton Park and Piccadilly Circus.
In 1985 the 23 (via Tower) was renumbered 15 and the existing 15 (via Bank) was renumbered 15A and withdrawn weekends, the ‘simpler’ option of extending the 23 to East Acton on Sundays and withdrawing the 15 at weekends wasn’t pursued.
The 15A was then renumbered 15 in June 1987, so the 15 operated via Bank or Tower, in March 1989 the journeys via Bank were covered by new route 15B, this was replaced with a revised version in July 1992 which forms the basis of the current 115.
The 488 covers the wiggly bits of the S2 and linked Bromley-by-Bow and Clapton, which is sort of what the S2 did when it was introduced in 1970, the 425 maintained the Stratford – Clapton link by a completely different routeing avoiding low bridges, so it could be operated by double deck buses.
The 276 was already on diversion following the closure of Carpenters Road for Olympic work in 2007, so a further ‘nudge’ to maintain the link to Stratford – but without the double run via Bromley-by-Bow was useful.
@WW – just so! ( For amusement, it was widely noted in the department that when LT turned 50, it produced a brochure showing Trafalgar square in 1933 and 1983. This was noteable for two things: all the 1933 bus routes were still there in 1983; and, also still there in 1983, was a ladder propped against the dome of the National Gallery – some of these works overrun badly).
The Omnibus Society looked into the question a number of years back as to which was the longest *continuously surviving [2]* bus route and concluded that it was the 11 (of course, running under a different number in horse bus days{1}), beating the other candidate, the 16 and its predecessor. But then “Main Street London” was the Strand in 1800 (and 800…) and is still a major artery, so why wouldn’t it require the same bus service? (Your point)
[1] Horse bus routes had a different system of numbering related to the “times” (ie diagrams) owned by the different operators – so did the earliest motor buses until 1906
[2] of course, the 205 replicates Shillibeer’s route but has been resurrected only recently.
The “No 11 bus” also had a pivotal covert role in party leadership machinations before the advent of direct democracy – but I’m straying off topic!
Famously driven by ‘Jehus'(1) & therefore more than averagely dangerous to pedestrians.
(1) 2 Kings 9:20
Bassom wasn’t a Chief Constable. For a start the Metropolitan Police has a Commissioner, secondly he was actually a Superintendent (maybe Chief Superintendent) who was, for the purposes of his work on road transport given the powers of the Commissioner.
FXH462 is a Guy Wulfrunian, surely one of the most unreliable buses ever produced. London got rid of them as soon as possible and they congregated in West Yorkshire, primarily with West Riding and a few with Yorkshire Traction. One,was often seen at the top of the steep hills that the west riding abounded in, steam coming from under the engine cover!
Of the two survivors, one was a West Riding bus, the other one the only example to work for County Buses, a subsidiary of Yorkshire Traction.
@Anonymous
As already stated, FXH 462 was a class L3 trolleybus, built in 1939, twenty years before the first Wulfranian took to the roads. I don’t think Wulfranians ever operated in London – the only Guys were some utility models used just after WW2.
Here is a list
https://web.archive.org/web/20080928104114/http://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/chassis/lists/chassis428.asp?MenuType=Chassis&Manu=Other
Mr Wiki says Bassom was made up to Chief Constable grade in 1925 to get round the compulsory-retirement-at-60 rule that applied to lower grades. He died six months later. William Horwood was the Commissioner at that period
@timbeau 🙂
timbeau says ” the only Guys were some utility models used just after WW2″
Only if you are restricting the discussion to double-deckers. The GS class (beloved of me and many of my contemporaries on Green Rover outings) is somewhat famous for having rather more vehicles preserved (or so it seems) than were ever built or operated! But I can understand why, they are just so cute, and will just about fit on a (slightly oversize) domestic front drive. Crash box, though, so not for the faint-hearted.
Bus enthusiasts, however (who tend to be of the masculine persuasion) should beware of declaring their liking for these buses with expressions like “I like Guys”. This can sometimes be misunderstood.
Had a quick scroll down the comments, forgive me if I missed anyone else saying this.
I’m pretty sure the 218 photo is taken in the old Kingston bus garage, the opposite end of the route to Staines
@Philip Ayres
se Graham H’s comment at 10.33
The presence of a 215 and a 218 in the same photo makes Staines an unlikely location. The two routes live on as the K3 and commercial route 458.
@Malcolm
I had indeed forgotten the GSs. A very dated looking design even when they were introduced in 1952, the year after the first RFs!
@Malcolm – “and will just about fit on a (slightly oversize) domestic front drive. ” Indeed, the Guy Special used on the 336A (the Loudwater route) went home with the driver at night, although I’m not sure he actually kept it in his drive.
Actually, although it’s easy to criticise it as an outmoded design, the styling was pretty up to date (cf contemporary cars) and compared favourably with that other well-known front engined design, the OB.
@Philip Ayres – there was no other shed than K into which the 218 went, ditto the 215; it cannot be anywhere other than K, where the two routes met. [As a small child using the 213, which started from north side of K, the garage was a fascinating place because one was allowed in to a running shed, something which remained a rarity on LT central area. The Ts which worked the 213 were a great trial with sizeable steps for a three year old]
Bring back the 699!
[ Which reminds me: I have seen no elecrtic 69’s at all of late – has the experiment died, or what – more information please? ]
LVF shows that two of the three electric buses are in use on the 69 today – DH38502/3, and that all three have been in regular use since April, although they aren’t used after approx 20:00 or on the all-night element.
Anon
Thanks for that … so three buses out of how many operating the service in normal working hours?
Would explain why I haven’t noticed them, though.
@Graham H
“it cannot be anywhere other than K, where the two routes met.”
Until the 1970s the two routes actually met in Esher, and rantogether along the Portsmouth Road into Kingston. According to “Ian’s Bus Stop” website, their pre-1934 numbers were 115 and 62 respectively.
The Guy Special and the Bedford OB (as featured in the Titfield Thunderbolt) were both unusual for the 1950s, as nearly all post war single decker buses were flush fronted by then – even half cabs were a little passe’. The GS’s, being intended for only twenty passengers, could afford the length of a bonneted layout, and one man operation made a half cab impractical anyway.
I was amazed to read that, at police insistence, as late as the 1950s central (red) area buses were not permitted to be fitted with doors unless used for OMO operation – passenger safety being apparently less of a priority than keeping the traffic moving. This applied even to front entrance buses like the RFs .
Kingston was of course the last outpost of the RFs – the dimensions of the garage itself preventing most newer types operating. In the end the problem was solved by extending Norbiton Garage, and Kingston Garage closed in 1979 – the site is now the Rotunda.
The extension of Norbiton garage was completed in 1985, at a cost of £4.6m, and was described at the time as ‘the jewel in the crown of the London Bus Service’. It closed in 1991, an early casualty of the tendering system. It was demolished and a Wickes store now occupies the site.
Most local buses in Kingston are now serviced from Fulwell garage, resulting in an awful lot of dead mileage through Hampton Wick, particularly annoying for the residents of Sandy Lane and Park Road who must have difficulty spotting their twice-hourly 481 amongst all the empty buses shuttling back and forth (and the non-stop X26).
Sandy Lane & Park Road are both served by the 371 every 7-12 minutes. 481 runs from Kingston over the bridge into Teddington.
I’ve got a feeling the garage in Kingston was open much later than 79. I was born in 73 and have distinct memories of catching buses from it during the mid 80s. As a resident who lived off Park Rd/Tudor Drive we used the 71 (now 371) a bit and I’ve got memories of 71s being turned in the garage. My sister in law’s a former Westlink driver and i’ve got memories of their stock on the 216 using it as a starting point.
A quick bit of research on when Kingston Bus Garage was still in use:
http://www.londonbuses.co.uk/bus-photos/051-080/065_M1381-M.jpg shows a 65 making a right turn out the garage, which date it to after the one way system was reversed in the late 80s – traffic previously flowed the other way.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/manofyorkshire/11930880674 shows a number of buses, including several VAs in the livery above using the bus garage in 1999!
Finally https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/15758858254/ shows a more modern 218, alongside a Westlink bus, inside the bus garage as per the original photo!
Kingston Bus Garage closed May 17th 2000…
https://213bus.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/kingston-bus-garage-1960s/
Apologies, for Garage read Station – after all it’s written across the building!
I remember these dreadful things. Where there was once a design classic there was suddenly a shed on wheels…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/5691279500
Closure for Kingston should be end of traffic on 12th May 2000, operations moved to a temporary site at the former Rockware premises in Skerne Road, then to the new site at Day’s Yard, Kingston Road, Tolworth (TV) from 3rd November 2001.
I over spill ‘coal yard’ site that Kingston used for parking closed on 29th June 1996 when Cromwell Road Bus Station opened (I think this area is now the housing occupying the area next to the bus station), so many routes moved to Fulwell.
Sorry, Cromwell Road opened on 15th July 1995, some routes moved into it in 1996, it was just the over spill site that closed in June 1996.
The garage was behind the bus station, and it was the limitations of that – notably the inspection pit – that apparently led to its closure, although as you say the station remained open for some time after that. Apparently when the low-cost operation started in 1987, with ancient Fleetlines replacing Metrobuses, a problem was encountered as the headroom in the bus station was too low for the Fleetlines – and no-one had checked.
@Philip Ayres
“Sandy Lane & Park Road are both served by the 371 every 7-12 minutes”
Wrong side of the river.
I was referring to the ones in Hampton Wick and Teddington, not Ham and Norbiton.
Sorry to have missed the last few days of this discussion – I’ve been in Northampton driving my Reliance on free bus services. This is not unfortunately a Reliance that formed LT’s R class and whose bodies were later transferred to Regal chassis to become the 11T11s (so staying vaguely on-topic). If I can offer some disconnected thoughts:
Julian – Although Isleworth closed on 8 May, if I recall correctly it was not disposed of immediately. I think it became a store for the Underground and the occasional vehicle of Central Distribution Services could be seen there.
Man of Kent – yes, I should have looked at the legal lettering on ST331. I imagine that this would have to be changed overnight.
TomS – some of the LTCs had glazed cant panels from new but seemingly not in a continuous series as LTC 20 was another. No doubt the answer is in Capital Transport’s ‘The London LT’. I have been trying to get hold of a copy but have been put off by the £120+ dealers are asking.
Timbeau and others – purists would be upset at the reference to Kingston and Gillingham Street ‘depots’. Trams and trolleybuses had depots; buses had garages. There had been a previous incarnation of TD class Leylands. These were Titan TD1s absorbed on 1 July 1933 from Maidstone & District and Thames Valley. Reuse of class letters more recently also includes the most recent Titan which became the T Class. The utility Guys entered service from December 1942 rather than ‘used just after WW2’. They were not in fact the last Guy double deckers in LT service. The experimental Meadows engined G436 served for a few years in the early 50s. More interesting perhaps is the fleet of Eastern National Guys operated from Argent Street garage in Grays. When the Grays routes were rationalized in 1951 (the company boundary had previously split the town in two) LT took over ownership of Argent Street garage and operated the existing fleet of 28 vehicles from it including 10 x Guy Arabs together with Dennis Lancets, Bristol JO5Gs/L5Gs and a pair of Bedford OBs. Although sources state they were loaned to LT they also carried LT legal lettering rather than operating ‘on hire’.
@Littlejohn – don’t fork out for that book for info on the LTCs (which are not covered there). [The book is, of course, as with Ken Blacker’s other works, excellent but – £120 – I will lock my copy away now… it would appear to be the most valuable book on the Hewett shelves which I had thought had included some considerable rarities; wouldn’t have expected this to be amongst them!]
Talking of bsues from the past.
Can anyone identify any of the buses in THIS picture ??
The purpose of the enquiry is to try to date the picture more closely – it’s reproduced from the “Spitalfields Life” blog.
You may also note a small private car parked, halfway up the picture on the left-hand side, & the GWR lorry in the foreground appears to be a Thorneycroft of some sort, possibly a 4-tonner (?)
Not sure of any of the buses, but if the tram can be identified that could put a date on it.
What is the location – I can’t match the church to any in the Spitalfields area.
The big construction project going on in the distance might be a clue to the date.
@Graham H. I have all the rest of Ken Blacker’s books but by the time my birthday came around (the book was top of the wish list) it was out of stock everywhere. I understand that for some reason it had a very small print run. Surprising that the LTCs aren’t covered but I would like it to complete the set and not for that reason alone. Similar prices are asked for several early Capital Transport books such as RT and the original 1975 edition of Ken Blacker’s Trolleybus (both of which are safely secured in my office/spare bedroom
@Greg/timbeau. Could the church be Christ Church? I don’t know the area well but it looks a bit like this picture provided by Mr Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitalfields.
@Littlejohn – that certainly looks very much like the spire of Christ Church, with its elongated pyramid of a spire raised on a square drum supported by pairs of columns. If so, the location ought to be Gardiners Corner, but there was no north to west curve there in LCC days. It cannot be Liverpool Street (the church would be too far away and the tramway terminated in a stub end with a crossover in Bishopsgate The mix of balcony and open top cars ought to give us some clue – more work in progress.
BTW that will teach you to have only one birthday per year..
I thought it was, in which case we are presumably at the Commercial Road /Whitechapel High Street junction, and Aldgate east station is just out of shot on the left.
There appears to be an open top bus in the middle distance, which could help to date the picture, but I can’t find a reference to when these were phased out in London as a whole or on that particular route. .
The lengths of the shadows suggest it is near noon, and the direction of the shadows therefore suggests we are looking west, in which case either the church or the junction (or both) have been misidentified.
Closed-top buses were introduced in 1926-7 according top Ian’s Bus Stop ….
But some lasted quite a time after that, until either withdrawal or conversion to having their top-decks roofed over.
The original caption states that the church is the actual “White Chapel”, which was very badly bombed in the Blitz- the site now occupied by “Altab Ali Park”.
See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altab_Ali_Park
@timbeau: I think you are right, but Commercial Street, not Road. There was certainly an Old Red Lion pub adjacent to the Aldgate East station exit, but fronting onto Commercial St rather than onto Whitechapel High St. However, the photo would predate the move eastwards of Aldgate East station in (?) 1938, so the pub/station entrance configuration may have changed then. This is not inconsistent with your point about the shadows; Commercial St runs a good deal west of north, so we’re looking NNW, or something like, which I think would fit early afternoon shadows.
@timbeau – yes, I’ve changed my mind on the identification with Christ Church – the steeple in the picture lacks the volutes to the drum, on very careful examination. I cannot relate any of the buildings on the l/h corner to the NW side of Gardiner’s corner. Maybe it *is* Gardiner’s Corner, but looking east down the Commercial Road in the early morning (in which case, the church might be S Paul’s Ratcliffe Highway – have found only the Pevsner description so far, which certainly fits).. To look west would require that curve to be west to south – not too many of those without a matching one in the opposite direction; note also the double track crossing at right angles in the foreground – altogether a complex layoutwith odd track spacing in relation to the road width, too.
Two maps to help resolve:
1890-1920 OS
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=18&lat=51.5152&lon=-0.0720&layers=176&right=BingHyb
1947-64 OS
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=18&lat=51.5152&lon=-0.0720&layers=173&right=BingHyb
Th estreet sign on the pub seems to read “Leman St” which all adds up.
PS I seem to remember reading (probably in Klapper’s Roads and Rails of London,which had a distinct East End bias..that the tram tracks were made especially wide at this point to leave room for the Hay Market which took place in the street at this point at the time the tracks were laid.
http://spitalfieldslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/B371.jpg
Klapper states that the rights to the market were bought by the London County Council in 1928, so that it could be extinguished. The tracks were then rebuilt to a more conventional layout the following year (‘the renewal occupied long weeks of the summer of 1929’).
And there is an LT Musuem picture taken on 26 May 2014 at the same location, still looking west but from the north side of the road. http://www.ltmcollection.org/photos/photo/photo.html?_IXSR_=4gJpMmTtD8o&_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1998/44142&IXsummary=location/location&IXlocation=whitechapel&_IXFIRST_=4. Another photo confirms the track relaying as summer 1929.
The church must be St Botolph Without Aldgate.
OK
So it’s before 1929 ..
And after – when?
As a small footnote to the presence of the GW lorry, the GW had a freight depot in Poplar serving mainly Bow, Limehouse and Old Ford; it handled about 300 000 tons pa before WW1 and closed in 1940.
@Kit Green – yes; S Pauls would be too distant to be very clear.
@KitGreen -except, except that the drum of the church in the picture seems to be supported by a structure with double colummns at each corner and a single opening between them which is blank in the picture. S Botolphs w/A has single columns and the gap between them is filled with mid-Victorian “Early English” gothic tracery. Itmay be that the limitations of Edwardian photography are to blame.
Am I reading too much into that second woman’s hat immediately to the right of the lamp post, looks like a Cloche hat, according to Wikipedia, this was popular 1922-1933, given the volume of motor vehicles along with the fact that they are fitted with solid tyres, I’d guess 1922-25, identifying that car would be a handy backstop though.
Looking at Streetview, the buildings either side of Old Castle Street still exist, the building on this side of the junction is now occupied by Chase Evans, the one on the other side of the junction is a Costa Coffee.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5149361,-0.0725246,3a,75y,294.3h,95.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_41zX-4jWiZONC0dz0KndA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The tram tracks in the picture identify it as looking west from Gardiner’s Corner along Whitechapel High Street towards Aldgate, and taken before the tramway junction was reconstructed, starting on 7 August 1928. The double track in the foreground is for the 47 running between Leman Street and Commercial Street. The two tracks converging under the front of the GWR lorry are from Commercial Road (curve from the left, for the 67) and the eastern part of Whitechapel High Street (straight, for the 53, 61 &63); the tram is an East Ham car just arrived on either the 63 or 67.
The corresponding eastbound tracks, and both directions of the Commercial Street-Commercial Road connection for the 65, are out of shot to the right, due to the wide spacing for the hay market as mentioned
On the dating point, when did the LCC cars receive top covers?
… the car halfway down the street on the left against the kerb might also be a useful guide. The buses look to be Ks or NSs rather than Bs, too.
Well done to everyone who’s done the detective work. Apropos not much at all I think I preferred the old Whitechapel / Aldgate East to what we have today. Really not convinced that our love affair with glass fronted tower blocks has done much for the feel of the area. Very instructive, though, as to how much places can change in not many years.
By the way, the caption that accompanies the photograph from the LT Museum says that the hay market ceased in the mid-1920s.
@GregT – sorry we’ve all disappointed you – not Spitalfields Life at all, but more a case of Aldgate.
@WW – it may well be that without the “stimulus” of WW2 bombing, the area wouldn’t have changed so much -many swathes of south and west London are still visibly the same – even the steady recent creep of the City to the north and east (eg round Old Street,Moorfields and Hoxton) hasn’t removed all the old fabric. This may, of course,be something we come to regret; it’s one thing that the well built elegances of the Portman Estate survive but I suspect that the survival of the less well built stuff in, say, the Holloway Road or Peckham, will soon be demanding attention.
@Graham H
Is that an LCC car? John Reed’s book tells me some West Ham cars were fitted for use on conduit as well as overhead, for through running to Aldgate. The two tramcars in the photo (there is a second one in the distance) both have trolley poles on the roof.
Ian’s bus stop says that the last open top NS ran in 1935, although at the end only Putney and Old Kent Road garages had them (because of low headroom in the garages) so seeing one at Aldgate would have been unusual to say the least.
Graham H & WW & everyone
“Spitalfields Life” is the name of a very readable blog.
The specific article in question is here:
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2016/09/08/where-the-white-chapel-once-stood/
The original caption (NOT written by the blog author, claimed C19th – !!) – which has now been corrected after correspondence. But, I’m trying to narrow the date down – in fact the first thing I noticed was the cloche hat, which meant post-1920, then the rest “came into focus”.
SO FAR, we think it is after 1922 & before 1928/9.
Can we narrow it any further?
I suspect a close examination of the original photo may be required – as W H Fox Talbot said: (paraphrase)
“One of the delights of photography is that one notices detail & objects, not percieved at the time of making the original image”
@timbeau – yes (we’d all got fixated on LCC cars when it was thought we were looking at Spitalfields), and not just West Ham cars either – East Ham and – briefly – Barking ran through to Aldgate, although the Barking cars ceased in 1914, so none of the ones in the shot can be theirs. Both East and West Ham had open toppers still running in the ’20s, as well as some balcony ended cars – as did the LCC – so I haven’t yet been able to use that to narrow down the date range. How many of these were equipped for conduit would be a relevant consideration but the fleet lists I have to hand are most user-unfriendly.
@GregT – the somewhat partial fleet lists in Rodinglea’s “Tramways of East London” imply that all the East and West Ham opentoppers had disappeared (or were oou) by 1923; the LCCs surviving open toppers seem to have been either stored by then, or used on S London routes. That suggests your picture is no later therefore than 1923.
A picture captioned Gardiners Corner in 1906. I think we are looking east, along A11 Whitechapel Road (left) and A13 Commercial Road (right), which makes the church the one on the site now occupied by Altab Ali Park. This church looks different from the one in the 1920s picture.
https://micksmuses.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/gardiners-corner-1906.png
The picture accompanied an article which said the eponymous Gardiners store burnt down in 1972.
Looking at St Botolph on Street View next to the one in the 1920s photo, I think they are one and the same.
The picture is probably taken from an upper floor of Gardiner’s Store.
We might be able to date it quite accurately if we could identify the big construction project in the distance, somewhere near Fenchurch Street station. What was on the Walkie Talkie site before WW2?
Mr Wiki says there was a renumbering of LGOC bus routes in the area in 1924. If we can make out the number on that bus that could help date it.
“On 1 December 1924, many routes in the group were renumbered, with 25A becoming 125, 25B changing to 26, 25C to 126 and the 25D becoming route 145. ”
Although this seems odd, as 1924 was the year the Bassom scheme, with its plethora of suffixed numbers, was introduced
@Graham H
I can’t see any open-top trams in that picture – only an open top bus.
@timbeau – sorry, I’d “read” the vehicle below and slightly to the left of S Botolph’s (about two back in that block of traffic) as an open top car rather than a bus.
timbeau says “Although this seems odd, as 1924 was the year the Bassom scheme, with its plethora of suffixed numbers, was introduced.”
Not odd at all. The Bassom scheme, if I understand it correctly, reserved suffix letters for short workings. So any existing suffixed routes (which, typically, were not short workings, but variations) had to be renumbered.
A pity it’s a GWR lorry. Any other railway company would identify it is pre-or post- 1923.
I agree with Walthamstow Writer that the 148 is on Eastern Avenue at Gants Hill, but I’m certain it’s heading west, ie. towards Leytonstone as per the destination blind. The large building in the background is the row of shops on the east side of Cranbrook Road as you head towards Barkingside. The buildings across the road from the bus are still shops, but in different ownership now.
The Gardiner’s Corner picture – the Lloyds Building on Leadenhall Street was opened in 1928, with the foundation stone having been laid by the King three years before. Could that be what the cranes are working on in the background?
Anyone able to blow up the picture enough to identify any vehicle registration numbers, or the fleet number of the tram?
@ Alan S – of course it’s west at Gants Hill. Bloomin’ decaying brain of mine. I thought I’d double checked the post before pressing “post”.
Regarding CRs (NeilD 8 Sept at 12.50), the link to Ian’s Bus Stop shows all the remaining CRs as being withdrawn in 12/42. According to the 1948 Ian Allan ‘London Transport Buses & Coaches’ – seemingly before ‘ABC’ had been thought of and issued separately to the companion ‘Trams & Trolleybuses’ – the last garages to operate the CR were Uxbridge (UX) and Hounslow (AV) in the Central Area and Windsor (WT) in the Country Area. I wonder if this is just sloppy journalism or if all the other garages with a CR allocation had ceased operation of them before the formal date of withdrawal. This would only have been 5 or 6 years before the book was written and so in recent memory.
@Littlejohn – I fear that’s not quite what Ian’s site shows. Numbers of CRs were reinstated in 1946 (eg CR2 at K) and were not withdrawn until 1953 or so he says. [That would make the 1948 ABC wrong, too…]
@Graham H – sorry, my bad wording. I meant withdrawn for the duration of the war and should have made this clear. I also plead guilty to a typo. Windsor was of course WR. WT was Watford, Leavesden Raod
@Littlejohn – by the looks of it, the allocation books post 1946 are patchy… (I seem to recall someone stealing them from the LT archives about 10 years ago).
@Graham H, yes, I had wondered about the availability of allocation books, which might also confirm or otherwise whether LTC 1 was garaged at Gillingham Street
Another date query: I’ve been asked if I can help to date a piece of film from the 1930s. There is a brief shot of someone boarding a bus, filmed from the rear. The registration number GH550 identifies the bus as ST 227, new in July 1930, so that’s an easy “not earlier than” date. But the bus carries a square plate on its rear, with a crest and the number 1735, which I believe to be from the Public Carriage Office, similar to the plates on London taxis. Does anyone know when this requirement ceased and such plates were removed from buses ? I had guessed it was with the creation of the LPTB in 1933, but this picture
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/south-londoners-queue-for-buses-at-london-bridge-during-the-news-photo/3142781?adppopup=true
purports to be from 1936 and the PCO plate is clearly visible. Any precision on when the plates were no longer carried would enable us to establish a “not later than” date for the film.
Ian Armstrong’s bus route histories can often be used to identify dates.
The bus on the left is, I think, an NS, showing what must be route 166 (London Bridge – Aldwych (although the “1” is obscured, it can’t be route 66 as that has never run further west than Leytonstone). The 166 was withdrawn in September 1939, (still using NSs to the end), so the photo pre-dates that.
The bus in the foreground is on route 43, which used STs until September 1935, when they were replaced by LTs.
The other bus appears to be an STL, and the word “Ealing” appears on its “via” blind, suggesting it is operating on route 17 (which ran from London Bridge to Southall until 1939). That route had an allocation of STLs from May 1936.
Clearly the photo cannot have been taken both before September 1935 and after May 1936! So if both buses have been correctly identified, either the ST or the STL is not operating on its regular route. I would guess if there was a shortage of buses because of the tram strike, a spare ST might have been pressed back into service on route 43.
I don’t know when PCO plates ceased to be required, but it may simply have been left on. In 2019 many cars still sport a tax disc, even though they were abolished nearly five years ago. Note also the “London General” bus stop flag.
I seem to have misunderstood Jim R’s post. The picture he posted is not a still from the film he mentions. Thus the No 43 bus is not necessarily an ST, and is more likely (given the other clues) to be an LT.
The caption says “March 1936” which, if correct, means the STL on route 17 is an early infiltrator, as STLs would not be officially operating on that route for another two months.
Sorry for triple post – I’m not sure that caption can be trusted anyway. It purports to be a queue of south Londoners queuing for buses at London Bridge. But all three buses in the picture are heading north (the bus they are queuing for is a 43 showing “Colney Hatch” as its destination) – and if they are rail passengers arriving at London Bridge from south London and heading for the City, the tram strike will have little effect on their journeys, as trams never crossed London Bridge anyway – indeed, apart from a short length of the Victoria Embankment, trams never entered the Square Mile at all.
@Timbeau: yes, you did initially misunderstand, and I apologise if I caused confusion by including the link to the photo, which, as you say, is not a still from the film. It’s because my initial guess was that the film was post-1930 but pre-1933, as I’d assumed the requirement for the PCO plate disappeared with the creation of the LPTB. But then I googled “1930s london bus pictures” and found that photo allegedly from 1936 where the bus still has a PCO plate. (I’d also foreseen that LPTB might not have bothered to remove them from buses that were already plated.) Conversely, in this picture
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/giant-ram-is-transported-along-fleet-street-in-london-bound-news-photo/3361919?adppopup=true
from 1938, three buses are visible and none has a PCO plate. So I suppose my question in its simplest terms is: is there a latest date at which ST 227 – the bus in the film – could have been filmed with its PCO plate still in situ ? And thanks for the time you’ve already spent on this.
I am sure I have seen reference somewhere to the withdrawal of the PCO plates but, typically, I cannot remember where! However, a quick look through Ken Glazier’s ‘London Buses Before the War’ (Capital Transport, 1995) finds a picture of LT 997 sporting a square plate on 24 November 1934. However, I wonder if absence of the square plates is definitive, because there is also photographic evidence of vehicles carrying a smaller oval disc, usually on the internal bulkhead near to where the used ticket receptacle was. Did these replace the large square plates? They are not so obvious on photos, unless the photo is taken from the near side rear.
@Littlejohn – I did the same and like you could find no reference; I also checked the History of Chiswick Works, and the catalogue of bus body numbers, with a similar lack of success. My recollection is that there is a reference somewhere in a detailed description of Aldenham procedures for body exchanges, but where…?
I am pretty sure I have seen reference to the withdrawal of PCO plates in comments to London Reconnections, but search did not reveal them.
@Graham H. Before I read your post I had also quickly checked Capital’s ‘Chiswick Works’ but could find nothing. As it was a reference to ST227 that sparked this debate, I wonder if there is anything in Capital’s ‘The London ST’? I am busy this weekend but will try to find time to look through it.
On page 91 of The London ST is a photo caption that says ‘In 1937/38 the traditional square Metropolitan Police stage carriage plates were replaced by much smaller oval shaped ones’. So we are getting somewhere.
We are indeed getting somewhere, and all the more so as someone else consulted about the film has ventured that a car in it is a 1937/38 Austin Ruby Mark II deluxe. So we have a bus still showing its square plate, and a car introduced in 1937, very much narrowing the date down to 1937 or 1938. Perhaps I should clarify that the film – which you can see here –
https://qniheritage.org.uk/film/
is not a transport film at all, and the request for dating came from a friend of a friend, so I don’t know much about its significance. Currently it is labelled 1930, but there was a suspicion – borne out by contributions above – that the true date was later.
There’s also 1 938-40 model Triumph Dolomite visible for a few seconds …..
I’ve been sent a pdf of an article in the April 2014 edition of the LT Museum Friends News. It seems from this that
(i) the plates changed from the large square to the smaller oval in mid-1935;
(ii) the requirement to affix them to buses ceased in mid-1939, but trams and trolleybuses continued to have them until their withdrawal in 1952 and 1962 respectively;
(iii) the square plates may or may not have been left in place on vehicles which already had them: the writer states that Trolleybus 1 at the Museum’s Acton site still has its square plate although it continued in service until 1948. However, Tram 1025, also at Acton, has an oval plate despite dating from 1910.
A correspondent writing in reply in the magazine’s Summer 2014 edition claims that the “new” plates (which he calls ‘N’ plates, from the letter N beneath the number, designating the Metropolitan Police area) date from as early as 1931, but that the “old” plates may have remained in place. He adds that of 349 vehicles overhauled at Chiswick in July 1933, only 2 received “new” plates, and that this coincides with the ending of the requirement for a bus to have a new plate number each year. There are inconsistencies here which I can’t resolve, but we already have enough information (including Greg’s invaluable identification of the Triumph Dolomite) to answer the film dating query in my original post.
Les Newall’s invaluable work on vehicle registrations comes to my aid again – the Austin’s registration mark – GMH – is a Middlesex mark issued sometime between June and September 1937, so that footage must date from mid 1937 at the earliest. (The middle letter is not entirely clear – it could be GWH or GHH, but those marks were not issued, by Bolton and Carlisle respectively, until the 1950s)
There is also a very brief shot of a Q-type bus operating a Green Line service. According to the equally invaluable “Ians Bus Stop” website the Green Line variant entered service in November 1936.
I think I can decipher the destination as “Byfleet” and the registration plate as DGX 226, which was Q220, based at Hertford from new in December 1936 for the “M” group of routes (of which M” ran from Hertford to Byfleet) until requisitioned as an ambulance on the outbreak of WW2.
Nothing there as late as Greg’s 1938 Dolomite, and of course any of the footage, such as the man boarding the bus, could have been stock footage taken earlier – anachronistic pictures illustrating news and public information films are nothing new. But clearly the complete film can be no older than the most recent clip.
The presenter, Christopher Stone, is named by Wikipedia as the BBC’s first disc jockey, from 1927- 1934, and then moved to commercial radio, and his would have been a familiar voice, if not face, to late-1930s cinema audiences
Just a postscript – the “1938” Dolomite was first sold in late 1937 (the concept of “model years” is not a recent phenomenon). However, the Triumph Motor Club’s website says the 1936 model was very similar. (The Wikipedia entry does not mention the 1936 model).
The registration letters look like BVC or DVC, which were marks first issued (by Coventry Borough Council, the home of Triumph) in June 1936 and September 1938 respectively.