Back in July, MTR were awarded the contract to run all Crossrail services. It would be easy to assume that this translates to services starting in 2018, when the central tunnel section is due to open. In truth, however, Crossrail services start far earlier than that. For the Crossrail Concession includes the operation of Liverpool Street – Shenfield services from May 2015 onwards.
Gaining an Identity
For some time this early takeover has led to an interesting subject for debate – just how will these services be branded?
On the surface this would seem to be something of a no-brainer. Crossrail has already been given both the roundel and the colour purple by TfL. Look deeper, however, and a key issue arises – that of public perception of the Crossrail brand.
A(nother) new train set for London
The success of the Overground, and indeed the general improvement of the image of the Underground in recent times, has left TfL with something of a problem.
In general, the public see TfL branded services as better (or at least very different) to their equivalents on national rail – even in situations where statistically it is not always the case. Building this image was a significant challenge at the beginning of the London Overground, and it is an image that TfL are no doubt keen to protect.
Original promotional image for the London Overground
Indeed preserving this image will pose a major challenge when taking over Anglia services, an issue we’ll look at in a future article on the current state of the Overground in general, for the public may well expect to see a step-change improvement on day one, whereas the truth is that positive changes, where possible, will likely be far more gradual. If it will be a challenge here, however, then it will be an even larger one on Crossrail.
With Crossrail not only do TfL face the challenge of taking over existing services that will need updating and rebranding, but they also need to do so with a railway where images of tunnelling, new station mockups and new trains have naturally dominated press coverage of the line. From a public perspective, therefore, Crossrail is largely a brand new railway which will feature brand new trains.
This is something that will obviously not be the case on takeover of Shenfield services in 2015. Not only will this see the Crossrail Concession effectively running identical services to those currently in place (at least to begin with), but it will also see them operated by existing rolling stock whilst production of the new trains is underway.
Mind the gap
Managing the public’s expectations in this situation was always likely to be a challenge but, thanks to MTR, it seems we now know how TfL plan to address it.
As part of the build up to the takeover of services, MTR have quietly launched a basic Crossrail Concession website. At the moment, its contents are relatively sparse, it being largely a holding site for more details to come. In laying out the timetable of takeover, however, it provides the following clarification:
We will operate services from the 31 May 2015 between Liverpool Street and Shenfield under the banner of TfL Rail, using existing trains that currently operate on that route and while work continues on the building of the new tunnels, stations, station improvements and new trains.
It’s a simple paragraph, but one with big implications. For it finally reveals how TfL plan to handle the transition between the old and the new – by creating a new, temporary, brand.
Getting the stickers out
The practicalities of how this new “TfL Rail” brand is likely to be expressed are now relatively easy to guess. Those who used the North London Line during its transition from Silverlink to Overground will remember that during the early days of the TfL takeover existing trains were rebranded by applying temporary decals featuring the new roundel and colour scheme. Meanwhile, stations acquired temporary signs which, interestingly, became something of a commuter favourite in their own right thanks to the somewhat amusing contrast between their sturdy construction and their proud proclamation of their temporary nature. Overall it was a simple and successful approach to managing the identity change and thus it seems relatively safe to say that we will see the same plan again with Shenfield services.
Temporary signage at Acton Central
The big (circular) question
This leaves one final question, of course – will TfL Rail carry the roundel?
Here, again, it seems safe to look to the precedent set by that temporary Overground branding. We are likely to see the Roundel on the services and stations taken over by MTR under the concession, because not to do so would be to miss an opportunity to highlight that changes and improvements are underway. The betting money here at LR Towers, however, would be on that Roundel not being in Crossrail purple, which would lead to confusion between TfL Rail and the future Crossrail brand, but in a transitional colour – blue.
It may seem thoroughly un-LR-like for us to make such a prediction. But here we feel we are on relatively solid ground. A dark blue roundel would provide an easy transition to the future purple not just in tone but because the Crossrail roundel (like the Overground roundel) already features a blue bar.
The Crossrail Roundel, with blue bar
Given that, again as with the Overground, the Crossrail concession includes the need for a deep clean and touch up of existing stations, blue would allow TfL and MTR to begin this process early in the contract. As a secondary colour within the future Crossrail brand, using blue would mean no need to repeat the process again with a purple colour scheme in the not-too-distant future. Blue has also featured heavily in many of the designs for the future station interiors seen so far.
Blue has featured heavily in the Crossrail interiors since the earliest station mockups. More pictures here.
Ultimately, whether this prediction proves true or not, the overall plan on the part of TfL seems a sound one. Create a transitional brand to help demonstrate that changes are afoot, and also to facilitate the shift to the future Crossrail identity – most likely with that brand close enough in terms of tone to allow a swift start to be made on improvements without adding rebranding costs further down the line.
As always, we will watch future developments with interest.
I wonder what colour it’s going to be on the tube map (unless, of course, it’s not going to be on the tube map). We’ll struggle to get another blue line on there and keep it visually distinct from the existing lines.
roy
@ Roy Badami I think the colour chosen by TfL for Crossrail is purple so I assume that is the colour which will eventually appear on the maps but not I think until Crossrail is fully complete in 2018
@RichardB But the Romford/Upminister Overground service will make a lot more sense if they also add the Liverpool Street/Shenfield service to the tube map at the same time!
@roy badami
The Liverpool Shenfield line can appear in purple in May, with whatever name it is to operate under, and then be renamed when incorprated into the Cross-London system in a few years time. In just the same way that the (orange) East London line became part of the (orange) overground network
At the unveiling of the Overground brand, then TfL design director Innes Ferguson said the (previous) Underground East London line was tangerine, whereas Overground is orange. He said this could be seen on the edging of the white platform boards above the walls at Rotherhithe and Wapping which are still (or at least were) lined in tangerine, which is slightly lighter than the accompanying orange Overground roundel.
@Anon5 – interesting; it would be nice to know how many punters recognised the subtleties of the difference, but I dare say we’ll never be told…
Will Crossrail be listed as “under construction” on the Map anytime soon? Such as when the JLE was being built?
@Miles
No, it is current TfL policy not to show ‘under construction’ lines on the tube map. Lines only appear on the map when they are completed and passenger-ready.
Graham H: true. I should look next time I’m passing through either station to see if the panels are still there.
It makes you think, if Overground ever takes over Southeastern’s metro services, will the tangerine Coaches roundels dispear from the directional signs at the Underground station at Victoria because they’re too similar.
@ Anon5
Shadwell too IIRC. They’re quite distinctive to the trained eye. Their retention was touted as a cost-saving measure, given that the panels at the three stations had been replaced quite late on in the life of the Underground’s stewardship of the East London Line and it was figured that not many people would notice the difference!
THC
@Roy Badami
Crossrail 1’s colour is Pantone 526. My *guess* is that the TfL Rail will be this colour, but outlined like the Overground Lines are on the tube map.
@Miles
“Will Crossrail be listed as “under construction” on the Map anytime soon? Such as when the JLE was being built?”
This will happens only for long-lifespan maps such as those found in diaries or guidebooks. Other maps don’t show this.
@Anon5
“It makes you think, if Overground ever takes over Southeastern’s metro services, will the tangerine Coaches roundels dispear from the directional signs at the Underground station at Victoria because they’re too similar.”
1) Not a change of them being taken over as things stand at the moment;
2) Victoria Coach Station is Pantone 130 (a yellow) and nothing like London Overground’s Panton 158 (an orange).
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/tfl-colour-standard.pdf
@Anon 5 (tangerine ELL to orange Overground)
Tfl Rail to Shenfield could be “plum”, changing to “purple” when Crossrail takes over.
What is the official name for the rather redder shade of purple associated with the Metropolitan line?
I seem to recall maps of the earlier Crossrail project (to Aylesbury) showed it in an olive green colour
@Briantist “1) Not a chance of them being taken over as things stand at the moment;”
From the Autumn 2014 statement regarding the potential TfL takeover of Southeastern metro services:
‘2.197 Crossrail 2 – The government will provide £2 million between 2014-15 and 2015-16
to support the development of a comprehensive business case produced jointly by DfT and Transport for London, to complete ahead of the next Spending Review. This will be combined with a full options appraisal of all potential major transport projects in London, including an extension of the Bakerloo Line to improve connectivity in south-east London, and the devolution of South Eastern rail services to London.
So it would appear that it’s not completely out of the question in the future.
@Daniel
“… options appraisal of all potential major transport projects…”
Is basically saying “Not a change of them being taken over as things stand at the moment”. It’s like saying that you are thinking of going to the library at some point in the next month, compared with actually reading a book!
Or “the list of things that we haven’t yet rules out is currently everything”.
Perhaps there is an election coming up and telling people ” honestly, no” isn’t a vote winner?
@Daniel ..ah! Daniel! Let me tell you about a lovely Treasury/Ministerial device for avoiding a decision – it’s called “Let’s commission a full and thorough going study of all the options”. £2m is a cheap way of making the problem go away/ turn up much later on someone else’s plate. Rememebr how may studies we all had to fight through before XR1 got approval?
@timbea
The Met line colour is Pantone 253… As per the very useful link in my last comment!
@Briantist
I don’t hear many people referring to the metropolitan line as the “pantone 253” line. It’s often referred to as the purple (or maybe maroon) line.
THC: I might’ve been thinking of Shadwell to be honest. That’s right, the panels were still quite new.
Brianist: I agree the colours are quite different but when you look at the roundels together (see link below) then think of how small they appear on direction signs hung from the ceiling at Victoria (bottom of the escalators from Victoria line to ticket hall) I think the average commuter could confuse them. Let’s not forget TfL journey planner uses a tram icon rather than a green roundel presumably because it’s too similar to the DLR.
http://sheilapontis.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/mind-the-gap/
Graham H @ 4 January 2015 at 15:56
I know what you mean , but
1) the project appraisals Daniel has summarised make perfect sense. A time will come to decide relative priorities and start dates for these big projects and the Ministers of the time will expect good and detailed advice.
2) Harold Wilson’s comment about Royal Commissions made the point in fewer words “take minutes, last years”.
@Alan Griffiths – Yes, Der Tag may come -but (a) the advice so carefully garnered now may well be out of date by then (at least that’s what HMT will hope), and (b) the terms of the current studies may well be set up with just such an eventual crash in mind. The story of Crossrail is a perfect illustration of both techniques,TLK a close second!
It’s difficult. If you don’t have a well-stocked store cupboard when the window of opportunity is open (sorry for the mixed metaphors) then you are sunk (another one!). On the other hand, you may simply be wasting your time with futile studies. It’s probably essential to distinguish between studies which are genuinely prompted by professional planners (eg XR1 Mk1) and those which are the Treasury equivalent of a large bottle of Verdone (eg “Northern XR”).
The problem in London (and to some extent elsewhere) is that between 1984 and 200x, there was no transport planning authority and no studies, LU and LBL did what they could but the LT invested experience quickly ran down. Railtrack – he said with some personal bitterness -had zero interest in forward planning or studies, and, as Roger Salmon said bluntly to me when I was paraded as a possible chief planner at OPRAF. “My remit is simply to let the franchises; I’m not interested in planning”. How we laughed. Restarting that process has taken time and until very recently we have been living off the work inherited from the past.
@ Graham H – when I saw the reference to those studies posted again I did wonder quite why they were being produced. And with due apologies to those who are more optimistically minded than I am I do wonder if they will simply be a defence mechanism against the inevitable huge lobbying from a wide range of stakeholders to progress all the schemes. It looks very like a Treasury device to undermine whatever case is presented and then to concoct some poisonous range of options which no one will like but they will be forced to select one in order to get some cash to do something (no doubt much less than anyone really wants). It’s the term “full options appraisal” that sets my alarm bells ringing because it’s not at all clear what those options will be!! The media presented this as just £2m to progress the CR2 business case when it’s not that at all. It’s a very different thing that’s being produced. I’d love to be optimistic but I can’t see London getting CR2 funded and being allowed to extend the Bakerloo Line as well. If the takeover of SET inner area services could be done in a more modest way then it might sneak past but a modest scheme is unlikely to be popular with London politicians who want new trains, more services and everything jazzed up.
@WW – if anything, I would be even more cynical about the nature and purpose of these studies; fairies are very rarely seen at the bottom of the Treasury garden. The interesting question you imply is that TfL will have to choose (well, the incumbent Mayor, any way)between Bakerloo and XR2. Any views on how that choice will come out? (Other than as a political fix)
@ Graham H – well a key factor is who wins the next election and where any electoral damage occurs as a result of a large scale project to build a new main line railway north of London. I think it will be very hard for that project to survive if Labour win (can’t see Ed Balls agreeing to spend the money) or UKIP do well in a number of key Tory constituencies. I also think that financial pressures will pose real risks to that project and if it dies then so does part of the justification for CR2 in terms of TfL / Mayoral lobbying for a big government funding contribution. The apparent poor potential level of external funding for CR2 also makes it wobbly IMO as does the recent cost escalation. Therefore I’d wager that the Bakerloo Line extension might well be approved *if* a good proportion of private funding is found. However I don’t expect an early start to that project and the link to the upgrade and automation of the existing line also poses funding risks. There is, of course, the potential for political damage if TfL insist on the extension reaching a certain bit of SE London that believes it is in Kent. We also have little clue as to what any of the potential 2016 Mayoral Election candidates think about transport matters and the big ticket projects.
You don’t have to be overly sceptical to see a whole load of traps that any of the projects could fall down and which the Treasury would not exactly be sad about.
SER inner services/metro need more stock sooner or later with the emphasis on sooner. The house building plans for areas served by it are huge both within the M25 and out into Medway. HS1 won’t be able to cater for all of it and nor will CR1. The networkers have possibly 20 years left in them. TfL taking over shouldn’t make too much difference to what happens stock wise as the existing wont be moved and new is needed anyway, but they’ll gather a lot more revenue than SE can. So much untapped potential with those lines as it is (off-peak) let alone with massive future population & housing growth.
The treasury will try and kill it but events are moving too quickly. The population increase and housing issue is not going away.
The sooner devolution happens the better. Real tax revenue and spending powers, along with the ability to borrow. The treasury and Whitehall will hate it but couldn’t central govt can get some future debt off its books if borrowing undertaken by cities?
@ Ed – I think the world will end before the Treasury actually relinquishes any fundamental control over spending by central or local government. Yes there is loads of pressure for devolution but far too much of it is for the benefit of politicians not the voters. Once that particular penny drops I think public support will fall away. Of course the Treasury *might* allow devolution but only on the basis that the poor saps who take on the devolved role have the financial noose hung very firmly round their necks – i.e. no bail outs ever from central government. Once that sort of guarantee vanishes the cost of raising finance increases and then the ability to spend gets ever harder. If the voters genuinely want more local control of spending then there needs to be a thorough thought process of how to make effective changes to try to avoid too many unintended consequences after a few years. I think it’s pretty clear that some of those unintended consequences from Labour’s changes are now making themselves clear and we don’t like what we see.
Coming back to transport I think we may see similar issues with TfL and its funding position. It’s been carefully managed to date but the wider policy is to make services profitable and for the private sector to make a greater funding contribution. All the while TfL has massive borrowings. It will not take much for a funding crunch to emerge and TfL can’t walk away from its borrowing commitments so the only options left are service cuts, investment cuts and fare rises. I remain unconvinced that substantial, long term private sector funding can be pulled into the TfL budget. I can see similar problems in Greater Manchester where they are also using local funding packages but with even less control over services and revenue sources. It all feels a bit flimsy to me.
I take your point about housing developments etc in SE London but there is absolutely no policy connection at a government level between housing and other related infrastructure investment be it the health service, local authorities, transport, education, energy or telecoms / internet. I can’t think of anything that government does that has the various ministries working cooperatively to have a coherent linked programme of improvements / development to cope with population change in defined areas of the country. While TfL and City Hall try to cope in London I am not convinced there is much linkage between what TfL does and housing / development policy and approvals at City Hall.
It’s true the treasury will give up power kicking and screaming but no other developed country is anywhere near as centralised as England. It’s not even close – the UK is starkly different in how it is structured. The rigidity has caused long delays to essential infrastructure in London, let alone across England. As the population rises and inequalities between regions (and even within London) continue to rise will the UK/England’s current system cope or fold? I have doubts it can cope.
Govt doesn’t work well together as you say in its current incarnation. Canary Wharf can be looked on as something to model future plans on – the LDDC got things done and seemed to work in a more cohesive manner despite still having to battle an obstructive Treasury whose penny pinching ended up costing the country more.
City Hall has very little powers over housing so cannot really co-ordinate. If it did have the powers it’d do a far better job than Whitehall.
@Ed -whilst what you say about centralisation is true – and it has got much worse in recent decades as successive prime ministers have preferred to strut on the international scene, leaving their chancellors to do what they like – all the indicators are that Treasury control will be intensified. Even devo max sees the Scottish parliament treated as a large local authority.
The point is that so long as the Treasury is expected to underwrite local borrowing,it will always have the last word. The alternative is that local authorities are allowed to go bust. I don’thave intellectual difficulties with that but I can’t see Londoners taking kindly to being run by a governor-general (let alone the Scots!). The classic case is Newfoundland, as LBM,will tell us, forced to become a colony again after bankruptcy…
WW
We also have little clue as to what any of the potential 2016 Mayoral Election candidates think about transport matters and the big ticket projects.
To which, may I add the qualifier “now” – as in think now … ?
Given this article by Boris in which he is (now) publicly advocating the exact opposite policy to that which he instituted when he first came to City Hall.
Um.
As Graham H wrote above:
Restarting that [planning] process has taken time and until very recently we have been living off the work inherited from the past.
At the present time, there are various project plans of various states of readiness and varying degrees of quality: Bakerloo extension, XR2, R25,… There is no overall transport strategy, apart from the current Mayor’s 2050 vision paper. Which is to say that there is no overall strategy.
There is likely to be a change in the political complexion in County Hall in 2016. Even if there is not, there will be a very different approach to the Mayor’s position: A Karren Brady mayorality, for example, would resemble a David Lammy one, for example, more than either would resemble Johnson.
Whoever gets the job is likely to want to build a transport strategy to underpin any major project, rather than jumping straight in. This probably even applies to Andrew Adonis.
Money will be tight and the national political background may not be supportive, as WW has pointed out. Worse, the Northern line extension could well be a problem financially (to say the least) and be used as a stick to bash all London transport investment. (Is there still any way to stop this?)
So the Treasury and its current politcal master both have a massive interest in getting their strategic study in early, the aim being to control and shape future investment plans.
Re Boris’s article in Telegraph: this is the first time I’ve seen a figure of 200,000 new homes for the Lea Valley. I have seen estimates of 30-40,000.
This new figure is the equivalent of 2-3 new London Boroughs. I wonder if CR2 could cope with that!
Also of interest is his claim that the Treasury is working with TFL to find the cash. Could Graham H translate that for us?
@Anonymous – I should think that means that no one has the foggiest idea where the pelf will come from but both parties are manoeuvering to allot the blame when this becomes clear to Joe public. Meanwhile…
The interesting strategic point about the 200 000 figure (apart from the infrastructure implications) is the impact on local government structures – as you hint,it’s a couple of Croydons. Time to redraw some boundaries? or create a new borough or two?
The 200 000 houses is Boris flying a kite – I would guess that this is the first time that the figure has been put before the public and that the Mayor’s planning officials have likewise never heard it. So it’s this week’s policy and only confirms the idea that Heathrow City is well and truly dead, at least for now.
So let’s not go round revising London Boroughs just yet.
If the article says anything, it is precisely a public realisation / revelation by Johnson that XRail2 will be hard to finance.
@answer=42 – kite or no kite, it can hardly happen for a couple of decades. In anycase, development on that scale would surely call for a development corporation.
@Graham
In the Johnson world-view, development funds infrastructure. (And there is a party political agenda here, linked to a possible second general election, which I will leave to everyone’s imagination).
Johnson would certainly favour a development corporation; Labour probably not. So he has just over a year, with the short-term (at least) help of his frenemy at the Treasury, to put this in place. Interesting.
@answer=42 – could be great fun -gettingthe necessary primary legislation through in the course of this year will be tight to near impossible given that Parlia ment isn’taroundfor a sizeable chunk of that; and then there’s the delicious funof watching Miliband struggle as he decides whether to go ahead or not…
I doubt Johnson would be thinking of legislation passing on this timescale. His objective would be to close the argument in favour of a development corporation and perhaps frame the outline of the law. Leave the legislative details to others once he has left the post. As you point out, the ultimate objectives are political, not developmental.
Assuming of course that this particular kite flies with the City etc. Otherwise, move on to the next big idea.
@ Greg – that article doesn’t say much that is new and certainly creates a rather false impression about the ability for London to part finance CR2. It’s pretty clear, as things stand today, that the same mechanisms used for CR1 won’t work as effectively for CR2. Quite where you build 200,000 homes near to CR2 without destroying tracts of Outer London I don’t know. He’ll be wanting to build on the Lee Valley marshes next!
The fact that Boris says one thing today and another some other time on seemingly the same topic is no cause for surprise. He’s able to face in 97 different directions at once and still somehow appear plausible if you don’t pay too much attention. And yes you’re quite right that now we don’t know much about the Mayoral candidates’ views on transport. However they’ve not exactly been reticent on other topics like the mansion tax or the police so why not transport given it’s one of the Mayor’s few big responsibilities? Even a hint of what they are thinking might be helpful but I suspect the real answer is that they don’t know what they would do because it’s actually rather difficult. Any new Mayor must update the transport strategy but they’ve got a big job on their hands to update the current “strategy” with all of its contradictions.
Paid a visit to TCR today and noticed that new sign on Northern Line has first part just temporary covered and then has the plastic TFL use to cover the word Crossrail . It’s at the end of the platform and is either a new staircase or more likely lift given platform hump is close by .
As for funding CR2 the present government has offered 50% if TFL can raise the remainder a deal Peter Hendy described as fair.
It’s worth remembering that funding does not just come from along the route given how developers at Victoria complained about financing current Crossrail given it does not serve Victoria !
The old TCR is now reduced in size but I noticed windows of new entrance being cleaned no doubt ahead of a visit by Boris etc ahead of opening planned for next week .
Does anyone know when Northern Line at TCR will become fully step free ?
@ Melvyn – I am referring to the PWC report on CR2 when talking about the funding issues. I am well aware that the various levies apply London wide and not just to “line of route” development. PWC’s report is clearly that CR2 cannot benefit from the same time periods that CR1 will do in terms of the lifespan of the various levies. Some expire only 4-5 years after a possible CR2 completion date.
In terms of TCR I imagined that the Northern Line access would be step free from next week but perhaps we have to wait until some of the other exits, near Centrepoint, open which is Summer this year I think? I confess I haven’t really studied how step free access works in the interim stages of the project.
Walthamstow Writer
“Quite where you build 200,000 homes near to CR2 without destroying tracts of Outer London I don’t know. He’ll be wanting to build on the Lee Valley marshes next!”
Looking at the area between Tottenham Hale and Angel Road and Brimsdown, there certainly looks like room for 200,000 homes, even without taking in the marshes.
It’s going to be denser housing (like East Village or Docklands) not the traditional suburbs type, but if were 15 minutes for Central London on CR2 then people would live there.
Or perhaps Boris just mis-spoke (wrote) 200,000 homes instead of homes for 200,000 people – which would be closer to the previously mentioned scale of building.
Re WW & Briantist,
The 2 potential southern branches (those south of the SWML) of the CR2 have plenty of space near by if the green belt were to be adjusted…
@ngh
…….and they could even dust off the plans to complete the relief line to Leatherhead: currently stalled at Chessington as a wartime economy. The earthworks are still there, only awaiting track (and 75 years worth of vegetation clearance)!
Please find below a link to TFL site with press release giving details of where Crossrail is and plans for 2015 –
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/january/liverpool-street-to-shenfield-to-integrate-with-tfl
I used TCR today and used the new exit from platform to street and found the station was for late afternoon surprisingly empty or it could be an illusion caused by bigger station !
Stairs from platform into a new area consisting of a wide subway with parts for the future blocked off then onto new escalators where staff were preparing to turn on middle escalator up to booking office.
And while the booking office is only a fraction of its final size its still impressive compred to the old one again with sections boardered off and with 3 panels for line diagrams although only the Northern Line one in use .
Then escalators up to street level where weather prevented a look at any changes other than the old entrance which has now become a work site entrance ahead of demolition .
All lifts boarded off so no sign of when they will become operable .
Oddly tonight local news program was from new station and yet it got no mention in reports covering problems at LBG and tomorrow’s bus strike and yet it is biggest improvement to date linked to Crossrail !
Please find below link to TFL press release re TCR station –
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/january/major-tube-improvements-at-tottenham-court-road
@ Melvyn – I think an article about TCR including some rather splendid photos (he says immodestly) is on the LR production line and due to emerge soon. There was a tweet to this effect earlier.
@Melvyn,
Are you saying that Tottenham Court Road has a booking office?
@ PoP – I couldn’t see one when I was there with my camera on Sunday. I didn’t go over to where the ticket machines were as that was a relatively busy bit of the ticket hall and I didn’t want to get in the way. I’d be astonished if any LU run station was being constructed with ticket offices now given the impending closure programme.
@POP I am simply using the term ” booking hall – seems without booking offices we may need a new term?
Station only has ticket machines as reported in attached news on Londonist site which contains more photos and details –
http://londonist.com/2015/01/new-tottenham-court-road-station-opens.php?showpage=6#gallery-1
Given that TCR is used by many tourists I wondered how many users knew it was a brand new station exit/ entrance ?
Well, err … the TfL release that was linked to said:
Mike Brown MVO, Managing Director of London Underground, said: `The opening of this fantastic new ticket hall in a key West End station and the completion of the main element of the Northern line are both significant milestones in our vital work to modernise the Tube …
Very subtle point there, I think – “New ticket Hall” – no mention of a Ticket Office, is there?
The absence of a manned booking facility at a station from which it will be possible to travel, with one cross-platform change, to a wide range of destinations ranging from Great Yarmouth to Penzance, seems more than a little short-sighted.
@timbeau,
I think you are jumping to conclusions here. This is the LU station. Strictly speaking, nothing to do with Crossrail although for convenience of construction it was regarded as a Crossrail project for many purposes – not least authority to build it was slipped into the Crossrail Act. Until we know that the Crossrail station, being built on the site of Goslett Yard, has no ticket office I don’t think you can even start argue your point.
Secondly, in what way does not having a manned ticket office stop you buying tickets? The latest London Overground ticket machines allow you to buy a ticket from anywhere in the country to anywhere else in the country – literally from Great Yarmouth to Penzance. So long as it offers a full range of fares and staff are available for assistance why do you specifically need a ticket office?
@ PoP – I agree we need to be cautious as no formal policy has emerged (AFAIK) about Crossrail’s ticketing. I am very doubtful that any Zone 1 Crossrail station which is part of a wider LU station complex will be built with a ticket office given the wider policy change. The only one I’m doubtful about is Paddington as that seems to be remote from everything else barring the subway link to the Bakerloo Line. It’s easy to define an operational boundary for something like that so you can’t infer that Crossrail Paddington will be treated as a LU station. I’ve looked at all the station plans for Crossrail’s big stations and many show a ticket office but those plans were submitted a long time ago and time has moved on. I don’t expect to see ticket offices in the Zone 1 stations on Crossrail but I may well be proved wrong.
Where Crossrail’s TOC takes over an existing NR station then it will be caught by all of the normal industry requirements for ticket retailing as LOROL are where they took over from Silverlink / Southern. I am sure any attempt to dilute those obligations would incur the attention of London Travelwatch who are usually very attentive to such things. I am quite surprised that there have not been any public statements about Crossrail ticketing including from LTW. I would imagine they may have had private briefings on what is planned – well I’d hope that has been covered by the Crossrail team by now as we must be close to the time of tender award for the ticketing equipment for the line. I know from reading various TfL reports that the TfL ticketing team have been working with Crossrail and especially around the recent award of a new ticketing contract for TfL itself.
timbeau
Interesting (almost a “Mornington Crescent” ) question, isn’t it?
Where are the furthest points you can get to from a Central London Crossrail station, with only one change?
@Greg
“Where are the furthest points you can get to from a Central London Crossrail station, with only one change?”
Well, using Crossrail as the first leg, we’ve already established you can get from sea (at Great Yarmouth) to shining sea (at Penzance) from TCR with one change.
But from TCR you can already get to Fort William or Inverness with one change (at Euston)
If you start at Farringdon or Paddington or Whitechapel (all Crossrail stations) you can get to Bourg St Maurice by changing at St Pancras for Eurostar’s Ski Train
And if you don’t limit yourself to trains, you can change at Heathrow from where the world is your Oyster – (but please note that Oyster cards are not accepted by most airlines)
But @timbeau referred to one “cross-platform” change.
From a central London station, by train, with only two changes, you can get to Vladivostock, if you use a taxi to cross Moscow that is (sorry about the excessive topic drift).
[I would say it’s continental drift, but apt in this example! LBM]
@timbeau Crossrail’s design is thinking of the future, not the past. Buying tickets from humans is an anachronism and shouldn’t be incorporated into new infrastructure when projects such as SEFT are in the pipeline. And as POP says, there are ticket machines for now.
Where would the single cross-platform changes between Crossrail and National Rail be that would allow travel to Penzance and Great Yarmouth in that way? Will that be possible at Reading/Stratford? If not, where?
@Mike I was assuming Reading and Stratford, but it depends what services call at which platforms
@anonymous
“timbeau referred to one “cross-platform” change.”
Yes I did, but Greg didn’t.
SEFT – South East Flexible Ticketing is a DfT pilot to improve rail travel throughout south-east England by 2015 by providing seamless and convenient travel across the region. TOC c2c will improve its ticketing systems at all of its stations outside of London.
Anonymous says “ Buying tickets from humans is an anachronism and shouldn’t …”
Arguably buying anything by face-to-face interaction with another human is an anachronism. But it is one which is frequently preferred by the customer, particularly where they perceive that they can benefit from the specialised knowledge of the human seller.
Clearly transport providers are no longer obliged to provide staffed ticket offices at every station at every hour of the day. In some cases they may not be obliged to provide them at all. But they claim to be customer-focused organisations. And many customers prefer (particularly for non-routine transactions) to buy in person. So transport providers should certainly not rule out meeting this need if it can be done at reasonable cost. Staffed purchase is generally available in retail shops, often alongside “self-service” tills. Customers choose the arrangement they prefer.
@Malcolm,
Don’t disagree with any of the comment regarding human interface but the point that TfL would make (and I would wholeheartedly agree with) is that you do not need to stick with tradition and have that human interface through a piece of glass talking to the single person equipped to serve you. To me a good human interface is having the person next to you without any barriers between you.
You compare the situation with a supermarket and you mention the option of “staffed purchase” or self-service tills but some smaller shops are all ready effectively having the row of multi-purpose tills which can be used as a self-service or assisted service or even “self service with a bit of help if necessary” depending on customer requirements.
In other words don’t judge the service provided by looking at the physical configuration of the booking hall.
I agree about the piece of glass.
But one advantage of the human salesperson being alongside or behind a fixed counter is that it is clear whether they are (a) available to serve you, (b) busy but with a known and countable number of people to serve before it is your turn, or (c) absent.
In a ticket hall with only machines, if using the machine is impossible (because it’s broken, because it doesn’t do what I want, because I don’t know what I want, etc), then that is all very well, I know that I must try to identify a suitable member of staff – and hope that if I pick the wrong one they will at least help me to find the right one.
But if I just prefer to deal with a person, or if I think I know what I want but am not quite sure, then I would really like an easy way of determining how readily available a suitable person actually is at that moment: something which a fixed counter and space for a queue achieves perfectly.
@ Malcolm Vladivostoc and from there ” the only way is up …”
@Malcolm,
So I think the answer is wait and see how it works in practice. We basically want the same thing. I think it is all down to how well it is implemented.
Even without the revised staff training, more flexible machines, handheld iPads etc. at busy stations that already don’t have a ticket office (Vauxhall, Embankment, Temple, Cannon Street) there doesn’t appear to be any issues. It will be interesting to see if the same is true at Tottenham Court Road.
@PoP Yes, I agree that we are agreed! And that wait-and-see is called for.
There has been an element of cross-purposes, perhaps, in the conversation about ticket-halls, glass screens and so on, inasmuch as, while we were all (you, me and anonymous-7-41) talking generically about any arbitrary train operator, my comments were rather focussed on the national-rail situation, and your comments laid particular stress on the Underground side.
In practice the requirement for staff assistance will generally be greater with national-rail (advance tickets, split ticketing, bigger amounts of money at stake if a mispurchase is made, etc). Not to mention the fact that in many places in London, both sorts of purchase may be required, and maybe some with the characteristics of both (e.g. Paddington to London-Stratford, or Elephant to Kentish Town).
@ Malcolm / PoP – the poor old passenger has no option but to wait and see. While I fully understand the points being made I would suggest that we will not know until it is too late whether the revised operation for ticketing and information at stations works. TfL has no incentive at all to say openly how well or badly ticket officeless stations work because it remains in dispute with its trade unions. It would hardly share “bad news” as it would instantly be used against them by the unions. It seems to me that TfL / LU have decided to go down the “implement without agreement” route as has happened before. I’m not surprised at all about this.
Stepping back to what the customer needs we still have no explicit statements about how all the complex but low volume transactions will be handled. It seems annual tickets will only be sold by LU over the web – where has this been announced in an open way? I’ve only sussed it from reading TfL meeting papers and few normal people do that. If a TOC employee wants to buy a priv ticket for travel on the LU network how will they travel in future? How do you get incomplete journeys resolved or tickets refunded? There are indicative statements that some of this might be possible at stations by staff signed on to the passenger machines or over the web but given we are less than 8 weeks away from the first closures where is the open and candid and detailed information that explains how all ticket transactions will be handled in future? It appears to resemble a state secret rather than essential information for passengers.
We should note that the cashless buses change was presented as perfectly operable with the mitigations that TfL had devised. However within a few weeks we have a new ticket type introduced to deal with a “market gap” that was identified by dozens of people commenting on blogs and asking the obvious question about how people arriving at “gateway” locations could travel if there was no ability to obtain an Oyster Card and their contactless cards were not accepted on the TfL network. A variant of this “subtle change” was creating the short term child discount entitlement for visitors. Again something that was identified in comment and debate before the change but not dealt with prior to introduction. The subsequent changes are good and sensible things to do but why not do them as part of the main policy change so no one is inconvenienced? It’s not as if there weren’t plenty of responses to the consultation on cashless buses!
I expect we will see various other bits of “fine tuning” of the ticket officeless station concept but you’ll have to look hard to spot them even if they’re concerns that have already been raised prior to introduction. It’s also noteworthy that TfL have refused to consult the public on the ticket office changes and yet they did for the cashless bus.
So on this subject of ticket offices, I assume I can now add my delay repay vouchers to my oyster at a machine nice and easily?
@ ES – Quite – ditto for my £78’s worth, in paper travel vouchers, in compensation which I can use within the next year “from any Network Rail station”. They don’t refund in cheques, you know.
@WW
“However within a few weeks we have a new ticket type introduced to deal with a “market gap” about how people arriving at “gateway” locations could travel if there was no ability to obtain an Oyster Card and their contactless cards were not accepted on the TfL network. A variant of this “subtle change” was creating the short term child discount entitlement for visitors. ”
I had not heard of either of these measures – which are both very welcome – so I would be surprised if visitors to London, for whom they are intended, know what to do to get them. Where is this information available?
Malcolm
[off topic diversion and a moan deleted PoP]
Suppose you want a set of “joined-up” tickets for a cross-country journey?
[ E.G: St Pancras – Nottingham – Liverpool return over a weekend, whilst WCML was an engineering heap? ] Is your automated machine going to do it properly?
I suspect not.
Contrariwise, if it is “just” (cough) an intra-London set of journeys, then, with zonal ticketing it *ought* to be possible, maybe.
It’s not easy, is it?
WW
I believe you can get “Priv Oyster” now ….
Echoing timbeau However within a few weeks we have a new ticket type { SNIP } their contactless cards were not accepted on the TfL network.
…. I also missed that one completely. Please do explain? What was/is it?
@Greg
The Routing Guide says London – Liverpool is valid by fifteen different routes, including two via Nottingham (and Burton on Trent, curiously, rather than via Sheffield as you’d expect). (Three routes from Euston, five from Marylebone, and five from Paddington complete the list: there are variants via Chester or Manchester) But you could always re-book when you get to Nottingham. A more common situation, and one where you can’t re-booken route as easily, is if you want to travel beyond the validity of your season ticket. Particularly difficult to rebook if your train doesn’t stop at “Boundary Zone 4”!
Some ticket machines (e.g Southern’s) do allow you to buy a ticket for travel from a station other than the one you are at. Sadly this is not universal.
The routing guide is not a very user-friendly document. But it has occurred to me (haven’t tried it) that you can use any ticket machine to get a weird ticket if you buy the ticket on your smartphone then pick it up from the machine. Provided ticket-on-demand gets the info to the machine illico; not so sure that it does.
@ Greg / Timbeau – the ticket type I was referring to was the One Day Bus and Tram Pass which certaintly has been mentioned here and was in the Mayoral advice note which I think I linked to when we did the article on the fares increase. The ability to set a short term child discount for visitors was also in the Mayoral Decision and TfL Fares Advice. Both quotes below are from the Fares Advice paper.
It is proposed that we reintroduce the One Day Bus and Tram pass that was
abolished in 2009 as there was no market for it. Now, with cash free operation
on buses there is a small but important need to provide an affordable means of
travel for those wishing to use the bus but not in possession of an Oyster card or
a contactless card. It is proposed that the new pass be created on a special
purpose cheaper, disposable version of the Oyster card. It is proposed that the
new one day pass be retailed at £5.00 compared to the daily cap of £4.40. The
new ticket will be available from Oyster Ticket Stops and, in paper form from
Tube stations including Heathrow where customers arriving at odd hours may
not find an Oyster Ticket Stop open.
It is proposed that a new half price discount be introduced for pay as you go
travel for under 16s, aimed at visitors to London. This will benefit around 5,000
young visitors per day.
I see from the TfL website that the Young Visitor discount can only be added at Heathrow, Z1 tube stations and travel info centres. That seems a bit odd to me given people stay in hotels right across London including out in the suburbs.
You are correct that priv PAYG is possible on an Oyster Card and I dare say regular users of the Tube who are eligible TOC employees will have one. It is the occasional TOC traveller who holds the discount entitlement who may have difficulties in future.
@Malcolm. The problem with buying tickets online is that there seems to be an enforced 2 hour wait before you can collect the tickets. I have never tested this to see if it’s true or not. I do have a suspicion that some websites don’t say this. What I do know is that you can collect from any station with appropriate ticket machines even though you are forced to nominate a particular station when you book. “Any Permitted” ticket validity is a wonderful thing in some places, effectively allowing a fairly wide-ranging round trip with the cheapest return ticket. Just be aware that some train staff aren’t that clued up!
I had forgotten about the 2-hour business; as you say it tends not to be prominent. It would be quite difficult to test; just because you can pick up the ticket after 5 minutes on one occasion, that would not represent a guarantee that it will work like that next time.
What the websites imply is that it will take up to 2 hours for the data to get to the machine. (And yes, I also have picked up tickets from a station other than the one I nominated. I think).
Fandroid and Malcolm
My understanding about nominating a station is not that you can only pick up your ticket at that station but as a system check to ensure that the station you wish to nominate actually has a machine from which the ticket can be collected. This was particularly important in the early days when there was not such a wide coverage of machines. Sandwell and Dudley was a particular problem, I recall, for a long time, particularly for those who, on a Friday afternoon, were summoned to Head Office in London for a meeting on Monday morning, as it meant buying their own ticket and claiming back.
My experience of the 2-hour-rule is that it is very rare to have to wait very long at all. When working with one of the world’s largest travel companies we used software that is essentially the same as booking online. On many occasions I would make a booking for a passenger who was standing in front of a ticket machine at a station talking to me on their mobile phone. Once I had completed what I had to do and given them the booking reference they could retrieve their ticket and confirm that to me on the same call. I always had to warn them in advance that it might not work and they would be liable for refund fees if it didn’t. I can’t recall a single incident when it did not, but colleagues told me that it had happened to them very occasionally.
@WW
“the Young Visitor discount can only be added at Heathrow, Z1 tube stations and travel info centres. That seems a bit odd to me given people stay in hotels right across London including out in the suburbs.”
A particular issue for exchange students staying with a host family in this country. Those I have hosted have come by coach and we collect them from their exchange partner’s school, which is several miles from the nearest tube station (never mind one in Z1).
Odd map in the Evening Standard today, purporting to show Crossrail – it included routes to Aylesbury, Chesham, Watford Junction (via Wembley Central), and Woolwich Arsenal via Charlton as well as via the docks, and on to Ebbsfleet
A stylised version of this map, actually
http://i46.tinypic.com/xc42fo.jpg
Crossrail had their annual grilling by the Transport Committee this week. The usual duo of Andrew Wolstenholme and Terry Morgan represented the project. There were no great shocks or surprises from the various questions. There were concerns from Assembly members about project integration and the recent infamous Independent article on signalling issues. Terry Morgan was completely clear that progress on Crossrail’s own signalling was progressing well and was on time. There were also agreed interfaces with Network Rail for their systems and Crossrail’s but there was recognition that there may be changes on the NR side of things so developing mitigation of possible risks was entirely the right thing to do. There were a few questions about Old Oak Common and running to Tring and we were treated to the regular mantra of “we do not do scope creep, our sponsors have not instructed us to change, we are not doing anything about services to Tring or having an alternative depot to the one at Old Oak Common.” This clearly disappointed the Assembly Members who were hoping for a scoop or a firm promise of better services to the constituencies but the “Crossrail Two” stuck to their usual position!
Interestingly Val Shawcross picked up on how Crossrail would run to Heathrow and if it would reach T5. As things stand it won’t and passengers will have to change. Val pressed quite hard about why T5 was not being served and if there were engineering or technical reasons. Terry Morgan did mention Oyster acceptance as something which was a Crossrail commitment but which did not apply to the main line into Heathrow. It was confirmed that it was all a commercial issue with Heathrow Airport / HEX and not for Crossrail to deal with directly. DfT were put very much in the frame (and also by the Network Rail rep who appeared for the next session on CR2 but who was quizzed on Heathrow too). Looks to me as if Heathrow is going to develop into something of an issue before 2018. There were also a number of questions about site safety (after a fatality last year) plus the safety of lorries working for Crossrail (following the death of a cyclist). It was also confirmed that Crossrail are supporting the CR2 team with lessons learnt and also starting to second experienced staff to the CR2 team. It seems there may well be interesting lessons about understanding the importance of over station developments, land value gain and how to pull in additional funding. There were also “plus points” to be learnt from the overall economic gain from a project of this scale plus things like supporting apprenticeships, training, industry skills and sharing wider lessons learnt. And just for the sake of maintaing the track record there was the annual question about whether the trains will have toilets on them (no!) and confirming that stations would have toilets. And for good measure the same question was asked in the following CR2 session – trains would NOT have toilets and new build stations would have toilets and also be accessible. Note that there are no commitments about any existing stations gaining toilets or being made accessible.
timbeau
The reason I picked that example is that I actually worked it out & did it – & booked, in person @ StP.
Quod erat demonstrandum, quite literally.
And, yes, in the distant & long-ago, I once got on to a train at Birkenhead Woodside & got off at Paddington ….
Re: “Bus & Tram Pass” – I was obviously asleep at the time, apologies!
WW
A pity that no-one raised (or did they?) the apparently ridiculous plan to turn-back trains between Padders & OOC.
I can understand their reluctance to speak of Tring, but … are here any hints, anywhere about this?
Or will it, just perhaps, be added on, after May 2019 … (?)
@ Greg – there was no discussion about short turning Crossrail trains at Paddington. If I go into “Mystic WW” mode I would say that the service pattern, timetable details, first and last trains, stopping patterns and night Crossrail services are all in scope for future argument even though a lot of detail is in the public domain. The discussion about CR1 serving T5 was a hint as to what may follow in future. The politicians will start asking awkward questions about all of this when it’s probably too late because of the timetable planning cycle but hey that’s nothing new! Interestingly there was a little bit of “poo pooing” of the “Crossrail will be instantly full” statements. Mr Wolstenholme played it very straight by saying Crossrail is designed to take longer trains and to add a further 6th through the Central core. The question then is how quickly there will be a need to trigger that expansion.
On Tring all that was said was to repeat the public position that it’s being studied and it’s for the DfT. To be fair it is for the DfT and TfL to work on and it’s not an issue for the Crossrail project team. Terry Morgan was crystal clear that the priority is completing Crossrail and that any work on a Tring Extension was for after 2019. None of that is a surprise.
As a small side step there was an extensive discussion about what trains will run where on CR2 with a lot of questions from Tony Arbour (AM for SW London). The vexed question of CR2 vs Waterloo reared its head and the NR chap and Michelle Dix did their best to be clear and non commital at the same time. Mr Arbour, of course, wants trains to Waterloo and CR2 from everywhere on his patch as that maximises the joy of his constituents. The carefully prepared position is that service levels on the SW branches won’t be cut but the destination of the trains may change. This, of course, means all trains from a branch may only go to CR2 and not Waterloo. I wasn’t convinced that Mr Arbour fully understood what was being said on this specific point. He wanted CR2 trains from Surbiton and also from Twickenham. Richard Tracy (AM for Merton and Wandsworth) passed on the grumbles from his constituents about the safeguarding and people arguing about not being affected by vent shafts, tunnel portals etc. Can’t say I was very surprised about this.
NR are doing the work to look at the operational issues about how you can construct a stable timetable that is reliable and which branches cause least performance risk. There was absolutely no commitment about what SW branches would run into CR2. Michelle Dix made an interesting remark that some of the operational people much preferred the automatic metro option because it is self contained and they know that a high frequency reliable service is achieveable with that form of line. The regional Metro option is much riskier. Although the regional scheme is the preferred option apparently the automatic metro is not completely ruled out at this stage. I was surprised about that. Work is also being done to look at the viability of an Eastern Branch for CR2 (using the stub at Hackney) but it was said that any such branch would be a future phase of CR2 and not part of whatever the initial scheme was. This was because TfL considered that there is enough extra capacity going into East London over the next 20 years but they recognise that beyond that something else may be needed hence the need to safeguard a route.
Interesting document regarding the transfer of WAI to TfL.
Point 4.10 confirms that the WA trains will be refreshed, interior finishes, seating and branding (assume similar for TfL Rail).
Point 4.11 seems to suggest that Liverpool Street may be TfL branded, whilst being managed by NR.
I think TfL will be the biggest operator in Liverpool St later this year but all London termini managed by NR have standardised branding.
Link
http://paperzz.com/doc/2694700/item-9—transfer-of-west-anglia-routes-from-dft-to-tfl-a…http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/fpc-20141125-part-1-item09-west-anglia-transfer.pdf
Anyone know how to add a hyperlink?
[I have changed the link to point to the original source. Apart from anything else this is much easier to read without distractions. I don’t really want to encourage links to sites that have taken things from other sites if possible. If nothing else it makes it much more difficult to spot duplicate postings. PoP]
left angle bracket
A
space
HREF
=
left double quote
web address
right double quote
right angle bracket
space
TITLE-link
space
left angle bracket
backslash
A
right angle bracket
@Capital Star
<a href=”https://www.londonreconnections.com”>London Reconnections</a>
gives
London Reconnections
Note that you must include the http:// at the front or it won’t work i.e. you need the full web address.
@capitalstar
I think TfL will be the biggest operator in Liverpool St later this year but all London termini managed by NR have standardised branding.
That certainly seems to be the case at Euston and Paddington, which have TfL trains (LO and H&C) in the main parts or the resepctive stations – although they have done their best to segregate the H&C at Paddington. Of course TfL is a minority player in both stations.
Will Tfl/Lorol be “the biggest” operator @ LST after 16/05/2015?
I think not:
Off peak:
Chingford 4 tph
Enfield & Cheshunt 4 tph
Shenfield 6 tph
14 tph total
Stansted 4 tph
Cambridge 2 tph
Hertford E 2 tph
Southend 3 tph
Norwich 2 tph
Ipswich + Clacton 2 tph
Braintree + Colchester Town 2 tph
17 tph total
@Greg
Almost 50/50. Not sure how many passengers there would be for each operator of course.
However, the 17/14 share is also a temporary situation, as the Shenfields will soon be hidden away in a separate station downstairs.
The peak extras that Crossrail will be running into Liverpool St off the Shenfield route (continuing after the tunnels open) won’t be hidden downstairs though.
@Paul,
True but that is only 4tph.
I note that the branding at Liverpool Street is ‘to be reviewed’. I’m fairly familiar with the Chingford trains, but less so with the Enfield ones and not at all with the Shenfields. I wonder if the review is a look at whether a bunch of platforms from 1 upwards can be reserved for TfL trains and branded appropriately. Can those who know better comment?
I spotted an error of wording in that TfL Finance Committee document. It suggested that all of the services that LOROL will take over are routed via Seven Sisters. we all know they meant Hackney Downs!
Last, I was intrigued by the fact that Crossrail will take over Stratford station. The majority of services there are currently TfL ones. Is this taking over from AGA or LUL or whoever?
Fndroid
NO
From the local lines, you can access pf’s 1 – 10
From the main lines you can access: 5 – 14
from the electric lines you can access: 13 – 18
Assuming you don’t use the “right-across-everything” crossovers on Bethnal Green Bank, that is.
AIUI, there will still be “interworkings” with some Chingfords being operated by 317’s to.from Chingford sidings & appropriate working/payment arrangements will be in force …..
Stratford is (I think) an “AGA” station
@greg/fandroid
Why not?
1-4 Overgound (Chingford/Seven Sisters lines)
5-8 Anglia (Lea Valley line and beyond)
9-15 Anglia (via Stratford to Southend, Chelmsford and beyond)
16-18 TfL Rail (Shenfield – pending transfer to Crossrail tunnels)
I am happy to be corrected but Stratford is managed by LUL. The property ownership within the complex is all over the place as different bits are with LU, DLR and Network Rail. It was a horrendous place to delineate contractually. Naturally the main TOC has staff present on the station to assist their passengers and dispatch trains. At Stratford there are also separate TOC ticket selling windows. I wonder if the future arrangement will mean both AGA and MTR Crossrail will have their staff present?
I have an issue about the handful of Crossrail trains that will continue to run into and out of Liverpool Street (high numbered platforms) once through running to the tunnels begins.
Its easy to see that trains towards Liverpool Street can run around the tunnel portal, with no conflicts with any other trains.
Trains leaving Liverpool Street will only be able to reach platform 8 at Stratford by crossing the paths of trains leaving platform 9 at Stratford for Liverpool Street; unless they run into platform 10 instead and then run fast to Ilford before calling at all stations.
Does anyone have more details?
timbeau
And … a 317 coming in from Chingford sidings, which will then form either a Hertford E or Cambridge stopping service?
Simply not worth the effort & reduces operational flexibility.
At present, Chingford trains use all pf 1 – 7 regularly & sometimes come into 8 ….
Alan Griffiths
That is no change from the present arrangement, though, is it?
See also Page 19 of this pdf:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/anglia%20sectional%20appendix.pdf
( Page 19 as printed on the pages, that is – not the sidebar numbering )
And, anything coming along the “up electric” cannot get to a lower pf number than 13, as I said before.
@Greg
“And … a 317 coming in from Chingford sidings, which will then form either a Hertford E or Cambridge stopping service?”
“From the local lines, you can access pf’s 1 – 10”
So it would come into platforms 5-8.
We’re not suggesting changing the trackwork – just which platform trains are scheduled to use. Operational flexibility would still be there to cater for out-of-course surprises. Just as LO trains at Euston can use platforms other than the ones they normally use: or Piccadilly line trains sometimes use District platforms 1 and 4 at Hammersmith
Greg Tingey @ 27 January 2015 at 10:08
” See also Page 19 of this pdf:”
Dear Greg,
Thanks for that immense document. Page 19 appears to be about animals on the line.
AG & everybody else
All the sectional appendices are now available on line, giving complete & fairly current track layouts.
A huge resource.
Just google for “Sectional Appendix” & up they comes!
I have now looked at AR2, pages 19/105 to 39/126
Branding is extremely important and the ‘temporary branding’ of TfL Rail is vital to the polished future image of Crossrail. It will shine under a glistening purple and blue roundel and having shoddy Class 313’s popping up on the screen after a quick Google search of ‘Crossrail’ just won’t look good.
My personal opinion of buses has gone up since they became fully red and had roundels put on the side, and the introduction of the New Bus for London has further enhanced this view.
Off topic but of equal meaning, I think BR services should all be blue and grey, with the NR double arrow logo proudly displayed to bring together the services no matter who operates them.
Also, another benefit of successful branding is knowing that walking into a station with an illuminated roundel outside means services are frequent and reliable, you are safe and there are people to help you (although going by LU’s imminent staff cuts this may change, we’ll have to see)… I doubt the same can be said by walking into Hackney Downs or West Ealing Stations right now… However, I’m sure the warm glow and confidence of the roundel outside Queens Road Peckham or Dalston Kingsland stations (for example) makes the experience less intimidating than it may have been/ felt before…
@Jason – the point is not that branding isn’t important,but what should be done about a transitional situation in which the branded sevice exists for only a couple of years.
BTW, there aren’t any more BR services and the old BR double arrow is currently the intellectual property of DfT and used to denote franchised services. NR uses it only under licence to show that franchised services stop there. The TOCs could and perhaps, should, use it but there is no pressure on them at all to do so and the franchisees such as Virgin are obsessed, ofcourse,with their own branding.
@Graham, I didn’t know that about the double arrow… Thanks for the info!
Even though London Overground had their name on the old trains and stations, the fact it looked so temporary made it seem that ‘changes and improvements are coming’. This was further backed up by the advertising campaign. rather than the old trains and stations have a full refurb and repaint for customers to then think ‘well if theyve spent that much money on them, the wont be going anywhere anytime soon’.
The temporary brand of ‘TfL Rail’ will show that a change, albeit initially small in terms of what the customer will actually experience, has happened… And will also preserve the image of future Crossrail.
I don’t care about advertising. I care about
1) from Sunday 31 May 2015, I can used my 60+ Oystercard before 09:30
2) the possibility of more trains leaving Ilford depot towards Liverpool Street in the morning peak and calling all stations
The comments from Alan Griffiths today at 10.07 bring some honesty to this debate.
The reason people like the Overground isn’t about branding, or even possibly new trains, it is because they can save money on their journey, and they stop at every station. On this latter point that is great for those who live in inner London, but for those who live in outer London (or outside the GLA area) they then lose fast services, however of course TfL have no reason to care about those passengers.
Anonymous @ 8 February 2015 at 11:14
I think you missed my point. I live on the Shenfield all-stations service and used it as recently as yesterday. It’s a four track railway until the junction country-side of Shenfield station. Trains from further out use the fast tracks.
Few other trains use the slow tracks. Our Saturday and weekdays (except peaks and late evenings) service is every 10 minutes. There are some oddities, which we need TfL rail to deal with, notably:
1) extended and peculiar gaps between trains during morning peak
2) packed morning peak trains; hence the call for a few more starting from Ilford depot.
@Anonymous 11.14
QUOTE ……but for those who live in outer London (or outside the GLA area) they then lose fast services, however of course TfL have no reason to care about those passengers….
Not sure I understand your point here. At one level, why would TfL care specifically about `fast services outside the GLA` which are run by a different TOC. Why would fast services be lost? This would not be within the remit of TfL.
Re: GH 7th Feb 19.55
Fot those who weren’t in the thick of it as GH clearly was, it may be worth noting that under sectorisation in the late Eighties/early Nineties, both InterCity and Network SouthEast stopped putting the double arrow on their rolling stock with the second iterations of their respective liveries. My memory fails me regarding Regional Railways (which certainly at one time retained it in very small form next to the brand wording) and such things as timetables, although I’m pterry sure the all-routes InterCity timetable booklet was strongly IC, as opposed to BR, branded.
@Caspar Lucas – you are right that the businesses tended to promote their own identity (Freight also) leaving the double arrow as a Board level symbol. This caused difficulty, as I may have remarked before, when the symbol was removed by OPRAF at an early stage in the game: the Board, which had used the arrow on its correspondence and own level publicity, was now bereft of anything. I suggested that we revived the lion rising from a crown, holding a wheel, which looked so good on the WC first generation electrics. And it looked good, too when embossed into the Board notepaper (and on the corporate giftware – still have the tie to prove it…). [I have noted elsewhere on this forum, my occasions with the College of Arms to get a proper drawing of the crest to give our suppliers.]
One basic error not picked up is that Shenfield services use class 315 trains and not dual voltage class 313 trains although both are PEP stock and a decade older than Pacers !
On the original Overground TFL used temporary.orange hardboard name boards until metal ones were available and maybe they will do the same on WA stations , while Crossrail ones may get purple hardboard names ?
@Alan Griffiths
“I don’t care about advertising. I care about
1) from Sunday 31 May 2015, I can used my 60+ Oystercard before 09:30
2) the possibility of more trains ”
How are people supposed to find out about these developments without publicity of some sort?
@anonymous
“The reason people like the Overground isn’t about branding, or even possibly new trains, it is because they can save money on their journey, and they stop at every station.”
But they did those things already – the difference is that now people know about it, and that is down to branding and advertising (putting it on the Tube Map)
Only yesterday I was talking to somebody who was wondering how she was going to get to Essex Road: completely unaware that there is a station within 200 yards of where she was going.
timbeau @ 9 February 2015 at 01:12
“How are people supposed to find out about these developments without publicity of some sort? ”
I think you’re overinterpreting my comments. I don’t care about temporary details of what the advertising looks like; I care about the service. I can find the timetable from various websites or the pamphlets the give away at stations. This website
http://mtrcrossrail.co.uk/
was down yesterday, but is now back.
There’s a parallel with clothes. What’s in the shops is more important to me than fashion parades.
Paper from this week’s Rail and Underground Panel about the transition from today’s construction project to an operational Crossrail including info on improvements to be delivered by the MTR concession operator. Not yet read in detail but looks like interesting stuff.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rup-20150212-part-1-item-09-crossrail.pdf
WW
LOTS of pretty pictures – a bit low on specifics
However: May 2017 Introduction of new XR1 stock on ex-GER lines … followed by the staged introduction of services/routes that we already know about…
P 24 et seq.defining “what we mean by handover” is informative
@Alan Griffiths
“I can find the timetable ”
You need to know that there’s something to look for though. Branding the services to look like an almost-Tube, and putting them on the Tube map, makes people know they are there. To use your clothes shop analogy, the M&S branding on a shop front is a good thing to look for if you need a shirt. A little shop tucked up a back street where nobody goes isn’t going to get nearly as much custom, however good it is.
timbeau @ 9 February 2015 at 18:31
” M&S branding on a shop front is a good thing to look for if you need a shirt” if you already have some experience on M&S and know that they sell shirts. I’ve seen the image of TKMaxx loads of times and I haven’t a clue what they sell. Similarly, the first I heard of Lidl was a leaflet through my door; it didn’t include an address of a shop
timbeau @ 9 February 2015 at 18:31
“You need to know that there’s something to look for though.”
People likely to use the TfL Rail all-stations service between London Liverpool Street and Shenfield mostly already know the Abellio Greater Anglia service is there. Its only changes we need to know about.
@ Anonymous – there is absolutely nothing to suggest that TfL taking over the Shenfield stoppers will affect longer distance services. I expect the Shenfield locals timetable will remain unchanged from May 2015 until May 2019 barring any adjustments necessary to cope with engineering works on the route to prepare it for the full Crossrail service. The end result of Crossrail is that *more* longer distance trains can run into Liverpool Street and that’s for the DfT to specify in the next longer franchise for East Anglia services.
@ Alan G – I fear you may be disappointed if you expect more trains to appear in the AM peak. Can’t see that happening prior to full Crossrail in Dec 2019 but I may be wrong about the precise timing of 12 tph into the tunnels and 4 or is it 6? tph into Liverpool St surface platforms in the AM peak.
Not sure I understand the “argument” about branding. It’s clear only modest livery and signage changes happen post May 2015. I expect the emphasis will be on raising operational quality in the short term with a step change in branding and customer awareness once the new trains start entering service. That would match what happened with the Overground although new trains appeared a bit faster than they will on Crossrail and West Anglia.
We’re on a 4 year programme of infrastructure and station improvements which will cause short term disruption and then we have a phased lead in with differing service patterns. Obviously, as Timbeau has said, the biggest change in awareness is sticking these new TfL procured services on the Tube Map. And there I will stop before we start repeating arguments about maps!
@Walthamstow Writer
Definitely only 4tph (from Gidea Park) into Liverpool Street in peak hours. No up-to-date documentation refers to 6tph any more and I have had 4tph confirmed by Crossrail.
This means that virtually all the capacity increase comes in 2017 with the new rolling stock and the running of Shenfield service into the Crossrail tunnels in 2019 will only lead to less than 7% increase in capacity over and above that of 2017. Crossrail infrastructure gets all the attention but it the new trains that, on this section of the route, provide the capacity increase.
Talk of remnant 6tph into LivSt high level was based on current trains or similar, I believe. The change to 4tph comes with full-length Crossrail trains now to be accommodated at high level platforms and increased stock order in consequence, so maybe similar capacity.
@Taz,
It wasn’t merely talk. That was the plan. The Crossrail website referred to 6pth but was amended to 4tph after this figure appeared in the Anglia route study. 4 205m Crossrail trains at first glance don’t offer anywhere near the capacity of the current 160m trains although internal configuration may account for the difference.
Given the fact that London’s population is rising far faster then when 6tph was originally mooted and (presumably) there are the paths available it seems a bit short sighted not to use them.
Taz
…. followed by extra coaches being ordered for the units & the stations being fully internally extended by 2025 as the service overloads form day one, huh?
Or is that simply too, too cynical of me?
As a daily user of Forest gate station, I think that an increase in reliability will have an effect on capacity, if you follow me.
I notice that the existing timetable will be maintained, which is a disappointment – I seem to recall mention of 12tph calling all stations, rather than the 6 tph which Forest Gate currently has.
The morning peak trains are almost all delayed by at least a few minutes every day, meaning that the people turning up for one service end up waiting longer for theirs or cramming on to the (late-running) previous one. If the transfer leads to increased reliability then that would be a great boon. Also the deep clean before the branding, the addition of staff (there is a ticket office but I have never had cause to use it – it seems to be shut most of the time anyway) and improved seating layout will make a massive difference.
Having commuted across Zone 1, Hong Kong and Osaka in the past, I can say that he trains passing through here before 0830 are consistently the most crowded I have ever encountered, and anything that makes it easier for people to move down the train would be a great improvement.
Can anyone advise if Brentwood will be ‘re-zoned’ for fares once it becomes a TfL Station?
@Mike
Why would it?
It seems the roundel colours are not sacrosanct – I saw a cycle hire distribution van in the new Santander-sponsored livery this morning: complete with a red logo. Does this mean cycle hire kiosks and bus stops will be more easily confused in future?
How will c2c trains work with Crossrail trains? I’m aware that there are plans for an increase of trains going to Liverpool Street. Will they have to call at Forest Gate and Maryland or use the fasts?
@timbeau: Yes, the bikeshare roundel colour is apparently up for grabs to the highest bidder, the bikes get restickered accordingly, and even the web address and Twitter account change to reflect the new sponsorship. On the other hand, sponsorship of the no-longer Barclays Superhighways has been dropped altogether, so saving TfL many tonnes of paint to repaint all the bike lanes.
Ironically, the original Santander cycles have prominent branding in Barclays-like blue…
I noticed on Jubilee Line train today that a sticker has been added for Stratford Station with a new purple bar with TFL Rail added . So it seems TFL will use eventual Crossrail colour which no doubt will eventually appear on stations if they receive purple seats etc, similar to how Overground have Orange seats and decor .
I also noticed only rail service for Southend Airport with aircraft symbol is listed in a white bar.
Purple will be most apt for Manor Park….!
@ Anonymous when C2C trains run to Liverpool Street either as an engineering diversion or the Pre Christmas service they normally only serve Stratford Station and run through other stations without stopping. They will therefore have interchange with Crossrail at Stratford . Unless someone knows better ?
So when TFL take over Shenfield/Liverpool Street, will the fare to Liverpool Street be lower than the zone 1-6 railcard, as it is at the moment, or will we see a price hike to the equivalent of a zone 1-6 railcard ?
Can someone please tell me if there is still going to be any fast services from Romford to Liverpool St in the morning?
Will TfL set to remove fast train metro services and simply run the line like a standard tube line i.e always stopping at every station.
I do hope they do not cancel the fast services as this would be a great inconvenience to me.
Lastly does anyone know if there is going to be any changes in fares when TfL take over? I currently pay £145 for an annual season ticket between Romford and Liverpool St.
@ Anon123 – the timetable changed on 17 May. It doesn’t change again on 31 May. If you have a fast train today you will still have it on 31 May / 1 June.
The fares details were released yesterday. I congratulate on an annual season ticket price of £145 – must be the cheapest in London!! The fares announcement (linked to on another thread where I posted the link) said that no tickets would be withdrawn so if you have a point to point season it will remain valid and remain available for sale.
@ Peter 1635 – not quite sure I understand your question precisely but if you buy a point to point season rather than a Travelcard then these remain available after the TfL takeover and there is no price increase. Some PAYG ticket prices and the Brentwood – Z16 Travelcard are reduced as a result of TfL taking over. Shenfield prices to Liv St / Zone 1 do NOT change because Abellio remain in charge of fares to those destinations. TfL will price Shenfield to Zones 2-6 journeys.
@Anon 123
“I currently pay £145 for an annual season ticket between Romford and Liverpool St.”
The cheapest annual season ticket available from Romford is to Emerson Park or Gidea Park, both at £520pa
Romford – LSt Annual point to point is shown on the NR site as £1844. A Z1-6 travelcard is £2344. Neither of those will change, although single fares will be lower.
Not a good start for TfL Rail today: delays on the line but multiple complaints on Twitter of TfL’s status board showing a “good service”
Whilst TfL may use the name “TfL Rail” for their Liverpool Street to Shenfield service I see that the National Rail timetable, table 5, only refers to operator XR – Crossrail.
A quick question for anyone who was in east London this morning: the main panel of the National Rail Enquiries service indicator this morning referred to minor delays on some routes for TfL Rail because of emergency engineering works at Harold Wood but the Transport for London panel on the right said “good service”. Which one was right?
TfL uses the Underground’s definition of Good Service which is based on frequency rather than NR’s definition which relates to punctuality – fine when there is a train every three minutes but not on a 4tph service.
Just looking at http://ow.ly/d/49S1
interesting that TFL Rail isn’t anymore an all-stops service, but ones that misses out either Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park OR Harold Wood, Brentwood AND Shenfield going east and 10-minute waits at Ilford on Sunday.
Is this how Crossrail is going to run?
Briantist,
I presume the link is to an out-of-date TfL Rail timetable. The current (January 2016 one) can be found on the TfL Rail section of the TfL website at http://content.tfl.gov.uk/liverpool-street-to-shenfield-full-version-jan-2016.pdf
I fear you are confused. As far as I am aware, the “stopping” service from Shenfield has never been all stations in the peak in peak direction – at least not since electrification back in the 1940s. However, in practice, skipping Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park in the down direction in evening peak does not save much time as it gets stuck behind the previous train. I am convinced the purpose of this is to stop short distance passengers depriving longer distance ones (beyond Gidea Park) from getting on. The trains are very crowded. In the morning peak the trains from Shenfield will probably be full by Ilford – a very busy station – so not much point in stopping at the next three stations if no-one can get on and no-one wants to get off.
No, Crossrail will be different. For starters, Crossrail has a different operating philosophy more akin to London Underground and prefers to run all-stations trains. There will be exceptions beyond Crossrail’s control west of Paddington. In the same way, London Overground attempts to run all-stations trains but the there are exceptions on the service into Liverpool Street.
Crossrail trains will have greater capacity (both longer and fewer seats therefore more standing room) so the need to take into account the trains being full will disappear – supposedly. The superior acceleration and wider doors and more doors mean that Crossrail will take around the same time from Shenfield to Stratford than currently despite calling at all stations.
Please note this is the simplified answer. One could write a complete article on train service patterns on the “electric lines” to Shenfield, how it has changed over the years and how it will change in future. It is much more complicated than described with trains returning out of service in the peaks to get back quickly to pick up a second load of peak passengers and different service patterns in the peak direction and off-peak and in the non-peak direction. And the evening peak pattern is not the mirror image of the morning peak pattern. Finally, there are the quirky morning Ilford starters which will disappear with Crossrail since lengthening the platforms will lead to the loss of the terminating platform at Ilford.
Trust that totally confuses.
@ PoP – if Crossrail does move to an all stations service pattern east of Liv St then it is likely to have a riot on its hands. To be fair it can’t win. People at the inner stations that are skip stopped today moan like hell about their trains. People from further out moan like hell if their trains have to stop at extra stations if there is a problem. I understand the philosophical point but as has happened several times with C2C I can see the MPs and Assembly members representing Brentwood and the Havering / Redbridge areas all demanding the retention of skip stop trains once services run into the tunnels. It’ll be interesting to see how the Mayor and TfL react. C2C have already have to scale back their “all stations” timetable introduced in December with trains non stopping Barking and train lengths and starting points changed.
One recent development is that TfL have been saying entry to Ilford station is “restricted” in the AM peak with people forced to queue in the street. Now I’ve never seen Ilford at the height of the peak so can’t comment but I’m a bit suprised the place suddenly can’t cope given First, National Express and Abellio never had to restrict entry and I can’t believe there’s been a massive surge in usage since TfL took over. The ticket hall and gateline is constrained but the platforms are long, there are two sets of wide stairs down to the platform so puzzled that the place seemingly can’t cope.
Walthamstow Writer,
In both the TfL Rail and the c2c situation the issue is one of who gets priority when there is a lack of capacity – the “inners” who probably have an alternative, but less convenient, route or the “outers” who feel that their greater distance means they should not be expected to travel in tube-like conditions and, ideally, should have a seat. It has been this way for over 100 years. Hopefully, the fundamental problem (the lack of capacity) will be eliminated by Crossrail. If not resolved immediately TfL will have various options with Crossrail that it can pursue to ensure the issue is resolved. TfL Rail and c2c with its limited rolling stock do not have that luxury.
I can well believe there can be issues in the morning peak at Ilford although my experience is limited to an occasional experience of the evening peak (TUCA nearby). I doubt the issue is Ilford station as such but that the people cannot get on the trains and so the station gets dangerously crowded. TfL are much more likely to intervene in such circumstances than any of the TOCs.
You can’t believe there has been a massive surge since TfL took over? Well for starters didn’t they reduce the fares? And what about all the people over 60 who now discover they can travel for free in the morning peak? Anyway, you don’t need a massive surge. I suspect the steady growth centred around Stratford is enough to tip the service over to the point it cannot cope and Ilford station in the morning peak is probably the first station where people find they physically cannot get on the train.
CR1 trains are nt going to be any more frequent ( 1 every 10 mins / 6tph ) in the off-peak than at present – & in the peak?
You are going to get “extra” LST stoppers – err, just as at present.
Present trains are 8-car units, new ones will be 9-car &/or longer with same number or slightly fewer seats so more (uncomfortable/standing) room …
And they are NOT going to be wedged?
At present, in AM peak, huge numbers decant at Stratford for Central & Jubilee lines – up to over 100 persons per carriage, leaving up to 60-65 people going only to LST.
With CR1, those people will mostly stay on the CR1 trains, because there will be no point in transferring to the Central line, will there?
Actually Crossrail will be 8tph off-peak but I agree with the general sentiment.
Even if they are “wedged” there will be additional options – which is not something they currently have.
@Pedantic of Purley
“I presume the link is to an out-of-date TfL Rail timetable”
It was posted on the TFL Rail Twitter feed… My apologies if it wasn’t correct.
Briantist.
No problems. It was just that it was undated and not from the obvious source.
@W “if Crossrail does move to an all stations service pattern east of Liv St then it is likely to have a riot on its hands. To be fair it can’t win. ………….I can see the MPs and Assembly members representing Brentwood and the Havering / Redbridge areas all demanding the retention of skip stop trains once services run into the tunnels. ”
TfL managed to brush aside similar objections from Metroland when the fast services were withdrawn from the Met. It is interesting to speculate on whether the new MP for Uxbridge’s cosy relationship with the present Mayor of London would have made a difference.
Briantist (in Gigabit internet heaven) 31 December 2015 at 16:30
“Just looking at http://ow.ly/d/49S1
interesting that TFL Rail isn’t anymore an all-stops service, but ones that misses out ……… Harold Wood, Brentwood AND Shenfield going east ”
I think you’ll find that those terminate at Gidea Park.
Pedantic of Purley 31 December 2015 at 19:21
There are only four of “the quirky morning Ilford starters which will disappear with Crossrail since lengthening the platforms will lead to the loss of the terminating platform at Ilford.”
Some of us hope they can start in service from the depot once platform 5 closes.
I’ve found the interim timetable valid from 17 May 2015 and compared it to the latest one. The peak services are unchanged. It seems that simplification of the evening peak skip-stop timetable began on 17 May 2015.
Its only complicated for Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park for nine train departing Liverpool Street between 17:36 and 18:02.
What will happen when train run through the tunnels is a different question. The handful that still start from Liverpool Street in the evening peak will either have to
1) cross the path of incoming trains at Bow Junction.
2) stop at Stratford platform 10, then run non-stop as far as Ilford
Running the skipping services to Liverpool Street and the all-stops through the Crossrail tunnels during the peak seems like a good way to even out the loads on the trains once the Crossrail tunnels are open.
Alan Griffiths,
I don’t understand your last comment. Why can’t they do exactly what they do now?
The Crossrail portal at Pudding Mill Lane will be located between the two future “electric” i.e. Crossrail tracks to Liverpool St so effectively nothing will have changed from how it is today.
Pedantic of Purley 1 January 2016 at 14:32
Thank you for that question. They can, its the future plans for trains from beyond Shenfield that raise questions.
Running Shenfield trains through the Crossrail tunnels (projected for May 2019) will be followed by remodelling of Bow junction (as a result of Hendy review, no longer February 2017 to January 2019, but approx two years later).
Remodelling of Bow Junction is to allow morning peak trains leaving platforms 9 & 10 at Stratford station to proceed to Liverpool Street on separate tracks. Those leaving platform 9 will proceed, west of Bow Junction, via the electric up line.
In the evening peak trains via Wickford will then access platform 10 from the electric down line.
Doubtless we’ll be told how they’ll manage conflicting moves nearer the time.
[Note that Crossrail renaming contents will be deleted, until a new article is posted hopefully this evening. Please hold your comments until then. Thanks. LBM]
LBM & other moderators
How about, at least, a list of other links to this subject, whilst we are waiting?
[ Diamond Geezer, Londonist & Ian Visits – for starters? ]
Greg,
You know how I like to please you
http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/the-elizabeth-line.html
http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2016/02/23/crossrail-is-dead-long-live-the-lizzy-line/
http://londonist.com/2016/02/other-elizabeths-crossrail-could-be-named-after
http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/2016/02/no-one-is-going-to-call-crossrail-the-elizabeth-line/
My personal favourites on this are Diamond Geezer and Station Master (Geofftech)
Restrictions on commenting here still apply until the boss rescinds his fatwa.
Almost done.So fatwa remains.
Standard rule of LR – you can get it fast, or well-researched. Not both.
John Bull 24 February 2016 at 14:37
“fast, or well-researched. Not both.”
I’ve heard the same said about checking timetables.
Notwithstanding the thing we mustn’t talk about, we could note that the title of this thread, “First Crossrail Services to Launch as TfL Rail” is still correct, as the Shenfield line will remain as TfL Rail even after the core section opens, as they won’t be plugged in to the core until later.
@Alan Griffiths/John Bull – a variant of the wellknown Whitehall cry “I don’t want it right, I want it Friday”.
I’ve waited in vain for services which were promised “hopefully this evening” too.
:: twiddles thumbs ::
I have a stinking cold. It’s hard to write when you keep sneezing on the screen.
@ Timbeau – surely you’re wrong about the timing of TfL Rail’s removal? It ceases when enough of the new Class 345s come into service between Liv St and Shenfield. A number of stations to the east will have been upgraded by then so can also adopt Crossrail / Elizabeth Line naming. Furthermore TfL’s press release about the new name says it applies from May 2017 (as was the case for Crossrail branding) when the new trains start running. At least that is how I read it given the lack of statement to the contrary.
Therefore we will have Elizabeth Line services running independently of each other in East and West London from May 2018 until December 2018 when the tunnel section opens. Then you will have *three* Elizabeth Line services where you need to walk between them to use them as a “through” (ahem!) service from west of Paddington to east of Liverpool Street. Obviously that’s no different in concept to services named Crossrail in that “build up” phase lasting 19 months. So it goes from 1 service to 2 then to 3 then 2 and then down to 1 fully through running line / service.
@WW
There seems to be some uncertainty about this. Certainly commenters in the other thread have suggested that TfL Rail (or possibly Crossrail) will be the name applied to class 345-operated services in east London before they are connected to the hole, and it would certainly be less confusing than having two unconnected services with the same line name at the same station. (Although this already happens at Euston, High & I, Willesden Junction, Clapham Junction, Gospel Oak, and Hackney)
@ Timbeau – clearly there is a difference of view but where are people getting their view from? Where is the change in approach? It’s always been the case that Crossrail, as the name for the service, would start to come into existence with enough of the 345s coming into service as they’d use the new identity and would set the new standard. Those standards don’t suddenly start because you hurtle through a tunnel portal into the gloom of a tunnel.
Go back to this LR article https://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/purple-train-a-look-at-crossrails-rolling-stock/ and watch the TfL video. It says very clearly that “From 2017 Transport for London will launch Crossrail services between Liverpool St and Shenfield”. It then goes on to describe the trains’ features. Until TfL change the video I’ll rely on what they’ve said.
@WW
Of course that may still be the plan, but as the video does not take account of the rebranding it may be out of date in other respects. A lot can still happen in two years, as the 1930s housebuilders of Bushey Heath discovered.
@ Timbeau – of course things may change *in future*. Heck we might all be dead tomorrow. People are saying it has *already* changed. Where is the evidence to support this view? The TfL press release makes it clear that the Elizabeth Line service builds up at exactly the same times as it would have done for Crossrail.
TfL Rail have taken over most stations between Acton Main Line and Taplow from today.
MD
Slough being the exception, apparently?
Don’t want to be too much of a curmudgeon but this is just the reporting of a news item that anyone could have read by looking at TfL press releases.
We don’t really need this or a discussion as to what exactly it means.
On the branding issue, though, taken from today’s PR: “The ten newly-built and fully step-free Elizabeth line stations have been designed with advertising in mind”.
Yet here was me thinking building stations was about moving passengers…
@ Alison W – well if they are going to attract sponsors, who are going to fork out millions for the privilege of plastering their ads all over Crossrail, they have to say that! It’s also a bit of a swipe at history because the JLE stations were famously designed without advertising in mind at all. It all had to be retrofitted once LU had wrested control of the line from the project team and the “Architect in Charge” no longer had any direct influence.
Walthamstow Writer 11 December 2017 at 20:27
That’s the kind of thing that can happen if clowns who think Architecture is a branch of abstract sculpture are allowed to be in charge of anything practical.
The Architect of Portcullis House objected to the look of the old filing cabinets that MP’s moved into their new offices. And seemed surprised that they expected a practical workplace.
@Alan Griffiths – that is nothing compared with the Office Design Unit set up by the former Civil Service Department in the late ’80s. This collection of Oscar Wilde clones proceeded to visit Ministers’ offices and redesign them for them (as well as foisting “modern” furniture on senior civil servants.*) Paul Channon was an early recipient of their attention: the first we knew about this was trouping in one morning after a weekend, we found the SoS ensconced, and exceedingly embarrassed, sitting on a zebra striped sofa, with green bamboo wallpaper and some rather (very) dark wood desks and chairs. Portillo, the following weekend , had taken a very firm line with the ODU and chosen a light wood suite of furniture and some inoffensive informal seating concept (that’s a sofa to you).
* We mortals were offered a very chunky style of office furnishings. The then DG/Highways, Jim Hannigan, who was a rather frail individual, chose a suite, as was carefully noted by his opponents in the senior staff, listed in the catalogue as “Elder”.
@Graham H
Is an informal seating concept also a chesterfield? Asking for a Canadian friend.
@LBM -could be! [I still treasure an article on urban street furniture in the AJ a long time ago, which showed a seat made out of bent pipes captioned “An informal seating concept with strong anti-vandal characteristics”].
Graham H @ 12/12 21:41:
Interesting that Channon’s name should come up in conjunction with odd design decisions. I have a dim recollection of reading in Gerald Kaufman’s How to be a Minister that the Labour Minister who took over from Channon in 1974 found his office full of strange furniture too.
@ Graham H – that reference to the zerba striped reminds me of a rather bizarre leather sofa much loved by a disgraced former LU Finance Director (back in the 80s so no finger pointing to anyone more recent). On the day he “departed” rather a lot of people found excuses to cast a glimpse into his former office to see said much rumoured sofa. 😉
The issue of overcrowding at Ilford is one that has been developing and would require enlargement by Network Rail. It has been exacerbated by Crossrail works, and track work.
The removal of Platform 5 has made a difference as the flow previously moving onto a waiting train is now crowding the platform.
The construction of a lot of apartments on commercial land in the town centre has changed the profile of this former country town in Essex into a dormitory in a London Borough.
It’s proximity to new employment at the Wharf and Stratford Regional has added to the former city workers.
Crossrail have rebuilt the former York Road entrance and footbridge for peak load relief.
The main Cranbrook Road entrance is a modern austerity replacement not fit for purpose and constrained by recent Oyster barriers, hence queuing onto the pavement. There are plans to completely replace this station entrance.
Ilford has further been marked out as a special London Housing Zone with a major regeneration of the former Britannia Music site on the River Roding. The developers intend to reopen the former Parcels entrance into the station from Ilford Hill. That yard is being used by Crossrail contractors.
The depot could be used to turn some empty return in the peak but only by crossing the running tracks. However it is not the role of the depot other than starting some overnight servicing. The operational replacement for the short terminating bay is a new purpose built central reversing siding beyond Chadwell Heath. With the reduction in Liv St workings this will likely be for shortened workings.
The normal peak service will be Gidea Park with skip stopping as at present. Whether it’s GP or CH the likelihood is all seats would be taken by Ilford. It’s only 7 minutes to Stratford where many riders will be interchanging.
Off-peak should be all stations. Anglia will serve Shenfield and Stratford.
Brentwood, Harold Wood and Romford lose some semi-fast opportunities on legacy patterns but not significant with improved frequency and performance
Ilford ceased to be a country town well over a hundred years ago. It even formed part of the London tramway network before WW1.
Ilford is the most extreme case of an “almost instant” suburb that grew very rapidly in the late nineteenth century. I’m not sure when it became a separate parish from Barking, but there were no ancient villages, just scattered farms. The whole area had been part of the grounds of Barking Abbey. Ilford was never a country town in Essex.
Aleks2cv,
Not really sure of the point you are trying to make on this very old thread. And what I think you are saying has been covered many times before.
To pick up on just one item. Towards the ends of its days platform 5 at Ilford was little used. A few ‘bounce back’ services at the end of the morning peak and that was about it. Its main use seemed to be to stable a Greater Anglia train between the morning and evening peaks.
Crossrail (other names are available) does not tolerate turnback sidings other than between the running tracks as they introduce unreliability and are a source of delay. When fully open, as far as I am aware, no scheduled service will terminate in a side turnback platform. If there are any they will be early morning or late at night and will partially be for retention of driver’s knowledge.
Also terminating trains at Ilford would go totally against the ethos of Crossrail of all trains all the way calling at all stations – admittedly this ethos has been completely compromised in the west of London where it would be inappropriate and unimplementable.
It is easy for someone using Ilford not to see the full picture and even though a lot of people get on there in the morning and off in the evening one should not too glibly assume that everyone wants to go to London and there is a lot of inter-station school traffic, for example, further down the line.
The dream of semi-fasts on the fast lines as used to happen has well and truly died with the increase of usage making a rigid fast/slow split a necessary.
Ilford- 1876 population 3689; 1901 pop 41229. Separated from Barking ecclesiastically in 1830, administratively 1888. It’s an interesting question as to why, when the LCC was set up in 1888, it was not extended to include the nearer parts of Essex ( West Ham becoming industrialised well before 1888; East Ham perhaps developing just too late to be included)
Graham H
I think the answer to that is: The Lea (river).
But, as late as my childhood, the difference between the then district councils of Leyton, Walthamstow & Chingford ( that made up Waltham Forest ) & the internal differences, esp in Walthamstow were quite sharp.
Prior to the Herbert commission, IIRC, there were proposals to make many of those admin areas “County Boroughs”
Greg T: You mean “Urban District”? This is what my neck of the woods was before being incorporated into London (something some of the locals still don’t accept, even though the were only knee high to a grasshopper when it happened).
@SHLR – the various authorities ended up with a variety of statuses (status?) East and West Ham both became County boroughs, others boroughs, and some just humble urban districts. Most of them became tram operators, usually with through running to Aldgate.
@Graham H
“It’s an interesting question as to why, when the LCC was set up in 1888, it was not extended to include the nearer parts of Essex ”
Indeed, the LCC extended considerably further east on the south bank than it did on the north, well into Kent and all the way to Woolwich,. There was even a little exclave of the county of London on the north bank, at North Woolwich.
Yes indeed, which was part of the thought behind my comment – the N Woolwich enclave reflected the existence of the mediaeval predecessor of the Woolwich ferry rather than any territorial ambitions of the Kings of Kent!.